dodge a604 question

[wayne petty]

the 92 finally returned for a full test...

i just thought i would share this...

i happen to have a decent older scan tool .. one of the OTC monitor extended with the proper connector for the transmission connector under the dash.. the kit i picked up off CL has a lot more cables and cartridges..



the engine control computer connector is under the hood.. and cannot properly test the transmission computer from that port.. this is pre OBD2...

i got several shift ratio errors... and a turbine sensor failure..

when i jacked up the front wheels.. had the owner spin the fronts to 35... i was looking at the live data from the transmission..

the throttle position was moving. the engine rpms almost matched the turbine speed.. and the output speed sensor was moving also.. but the transmission was not shifting..

i went back and cleared the transmission codes...

at that point.. i noticed .. the engine rpms were properly displayed...

the turbine sensor was at 0....

the output sensor was at 0... but the wheels were stopped.

when he released the brakes...

the rpms went up...  the turbine sensor stayed at 0 and the output sensor started moving up in speed.. the transmission was still in 1st gear as indicated.. the shifter was in drive...

i went to the AZ.. picked up the turbine sensor..  pulled the battery.. the tray.. the cruise control .. the radiator cooling fan.. disconnected the valve body connector and was able to use a one inch deep socket to remove the turbine sensor and install the new one..

put it all back together..  jacked it back up.. cleared the transmission codes again..   had the owner put it in drive and it started shifting...

the turbine sensor speeds started showing up being different than the motor.. and when in gear.. with the wheels stopped..   showed a 0.. as the brakes were released..  the turbine speed picked up.. the output speed sensor speed up.. and the transmission shifted...

my advice...  az and others sell the turbine and output speed sensors for about 15 bucks each..   rodders with these transmissions that are having intermittent shift failures.. where the transmission stops shifting..  before having it rebuilt..  one might want to invest the 30 bucks and an half an hour of time to replace the 2 speed sensors on the front of the transmission..

the turbine speed sensor

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/SU1018/image/4/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the output speed sensor

http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/wl2/SU1034/image/4/

[348tripower]

Wayne,
I just passed this info along. My friend is still messing with one of these. Maybe the 30 bucks will fix it.

[wvcab]

i lead a way to exciting life.

3 weeks ago, a shop in mcminnville, replaced the torque converter, and repaired the transmission in this van. 2 weeks later the driver called me at 10pm saying when they started the van the starter was making a funny noise, so i had them bring it over to look at it, i pulled the starter, and found the shim all bent up. WTF?.the inspection plate was bent up also, put it on the anvil, and beat it back into shape, but it broke, so i installed the starter and all was good, van left, i left the tools on the floor and shut the lights off and went to bed.... about 2 hours later driver called up and said the oil light came on, and the oil level was off the stick, put in 3 quarts and all was good...

I went out and cleaned the shop up, swept up the floor and found a bolt on the floor, 18mm hex head, about 3/4" long, all beat to hell? where the hell did this come from??? well put it up on the bench....

the driver called and said the van was using a lot of oil, and he took it to Jiffy Lube, (those * couldn't lube their own asses), and they said the oil pan was cracked and leaking oil...

so i said bring it over tomorrow nite, i went to the wrecking yard and pulled another pan, starter shim, and inspection cover, and that night went to work replacing parts.

the pan had a dent, but i could not see any "cracks", but wth, i already had a replacment pan, so i replaced it with a new gasket, i noticed that the rear main seal housing was up on one side higher than the other, but didn't think much of it, at the time. put a dab of rtv at the seam where the block and the seal housing met, and all was good. went on to replace the starter shim, and the inspection cover, and noticed the fly wheel was gouged and scratched??

then it dawned on me... the bolt i found on the floor... was a flywheel to torque converter bolt.... spun the engine over by hand, and sure enuff, there was a bolt missing. They didnt lock tite the bolts and one of them backed off, and hit the rear lip on the pan ( I didn't notice that until looking at it later). put it back together, and contacted the shop who did the work, they said that was not possible, but would look at it on wensday, the day i had the mri.

well the van was still using oil, i couldn't go in to watch them, and the driver dropped it off and went to lunch, when he came back they said everything looked fine to them.

so i was instructed to find the oil leak, which the transmission shop said it was the front seal, which was dry, but oil was dripping out of the inspection plate when it got here.

so tonite i pulled the tranny, and found the source of the oil leak, the "bolt" had came loose, and as it loosened up it hit the hosing holding the rear main seal, and the gasket between the block and housing split when the housing was hammered from the bolt which in turn was leaking oil, along with the housing sitting at weird angle the left side was lower that the right side, bending the oil pan, allowing more oil to leak.

closer inspection of the flywheel, it appears the bolt must have wedged between the transmission housing and the teeth cause they were wore in parts of the ring, and multiple dents/gouges in the flywheel, and funny thing, but their was 4 bolts holding the converter on. but what was even funnier, was 3 of them had matching heads, and the weird one the 18mm wrench would not fit it and the markings on this bolt are different. But the beat up bolt i have matchs the markings on the other 3 bolts???

so i need to locate a new flywheel tomorrow.


btw, I have always been imtiminated by these front wheel drive transmissions, and have always paid someone else to pull them, they are really not all that hard (this was the first one i have ever pulled).

and this is why i hate working after someone else

[wvcab]

well i finally got the cab from the orginal post over here to the shop, had it towed, they dropped it out front so we were going to push it in the shop by hand. this is where i  have some new clues,...

i started the van so i could use the power steering, put the selector into neutral with the motor running, and it acted like it was still in park. Shut the van off, and it free wheels (in neutral).

ideas?

[wayne petty]

well i finally got the cab from the orginal post over here to the shop, had it towed, they dropped it out front so we were going to push it in the shop by hand. this is where i  have some new clues,...

i started the van so i could use the power steering, put the selector into neutral with the motor running, and it acted like it was still in park. Shut the van off, and it free wheels (in neutral).

ideas?

let me get this right....  

engine off... in park.. wheels locked...  in neutral  free wheels.. as expected..

engine on.. in neutral...   wheels locked......?

fluid level check first engine running...... i know you already did it ... (but other people are going to read this , i hope)

fluid color check.. wipe dipstick on a white paper towel or tissue..   bright red.. dark red... brown.... black....   remember.. that transmission takes ATF+4 .... NOT DEXTRON>.. be sure to use your P touch and on the core support... write a label.. ATF+4 only... NOT DEXTRON. for who ever checks the oils or does oil changes...

do you get reverse when you have it selected...

do you get forward in drive? or low..


reverse is NOT computer controlled...

there should at least be a  single forward gear...  when the computer is defaulted...

i am taking that you have an OBD2 scan tool....  do you get any transmission codes???  P0700 to P0799 and ANY other codes...

this is a 2000 model...  can your scan tool access the transmission.  during set up it does offer that option...   i have even seen it on my 120 buck harbor freight 98614 scan tool....  but i did not get deep into it on a OBD2 car...  so i don't know if its going to access it like my monitor extended... i took a look at the portland CL...  i did not see any scan tools listed like there are here in LA... must be smarter people up there..

(when i run out the door if the earthquake comes... things i am taking with me...   wife... cats... scan tool....)

[wayne petty]

i send you a bunch of stuff....   look up CVO test...

the chrysler transmission controller keeps track of how long it takes for the clutches to activate... keeps this in memory....  uses it to calculate how much atf to meter in to get a nice smooth shift between gears...

if it just opened the solenoid... to allow the oil to flow in... it would just slam between gears....  so they pulse the solenoid.... keeping track of how many pulses it takes for each change....   then it knows how to create a smooth shift...


i wonder if that computer has a power supply problem...  like the keep alive memory is being shut off with the key.. or some bodys taking the battery cable off...  i don't know for sure if that will erase the CVO numbers.. probably.. but that year should be a NGC.. next generation controller...

next trip north to moms house... i guess i will have to stop in... i don't know when this will be..

another thing... does your scan tool have the record provision.. and the USB cable to transfer the data to a PC... none of them talk to a mac...

[Crosley.In.AZ]

i
the chrysler transmission controller keeps track of how long it takes for the clutches to activate... keeps this in memory....  uses it to calculate how much atf to meter in to get a nice smooth shift between gears...

if it just opened the solenoid... to allow the oil to flow in... it would just slam between gears....  so they pulse the solenoid.... keeping track of how many pulses it takes for each change....   then it knows how to create a smooth shift...

commonly referred to as " volume fill" ... this process is causing some problems in aftermarket shift modification kits.

After major trans repair, often the trans ECM needs to be put into a "fast learn" process so the ECM gathers info quicker - sooner - better to avoid trans damage

[wvcab]

the van has no gears. you can feel it trying to engage, the motor has a definite rpm change and if you give to gas, you can feel a load on it (in forward or reverse), if you give it enough gas it will move, but it has one lleh  of a * and nasty cluck sound.

fluid is +4, and no odor, and between the hash marks...

going to hook up scan tool.

[wayne petty]

CVI test... not CVO...

more here....  http://dodgedynasty.50megs.com/a604/troubleshoot.html


The A604: CVI Test

A CVI test (Clutch Volume Index) can give you a good idea about the hydrolic system within the A604 its self during different operations (gears).

This is when you run the tranny and use a pressure gauge to check the pressure of different parts of the A604's hydrolic system. Your measurements will tell you rather or not the A604 is working properly from a hydrolic, mechanical perspective. If the values are off, you may want need a rebuild. Try replacing the solenoid pack first, if the problems continue and the CVI test shows something is wrong, a rebuild maybe essential.

To perform the CVI test- run the car until the A604's fluid is in typical operating temperature (150-200 degrees F). Using a tach, jack up the car so that the front wheels can turn (without touching anything).

You'd need a 150 psi gauge to do forward checks, to check the reverse you need a 300psi gauge.

PartA: You'd want to take a pressure gauge and put it on the low/reverse clutch pressure tap, with the shifter selected in the "L" position. Set cruise control so that the speedo shows 20 mph. The reading should be 115-145 psi.

PartB: Put the gauge on the underdrive clutch pressure tap (Use an FSM to find out which tap is which btw), with the shifter in "D", set the cruise for 30 mph. The reading should be 110-145 psi.

PartC: Put the gauge on the overdrive pressure tap, with the shifter on "D", set the cruise for 20mph. Reading should be 74-95 psi.

PartD: Put the guage on the 2/4 pressure tap, with the shifter on "D", set the cruise for 30mph. The reading should be 75-95 psi.

PartE: Put the gauge on "lockup off" pressure tap, with the shifter on "D" set the cruise for 50mph. Reading should be less than 5psi.

PartF: Put the gauge on the reverse pressure tap, with the shifter in "reverse"- have a foot on the brake and the throttle pressed until you get to 1500rpm- at which point the reading should be between 165 and 235 psi.

From this test: If the pressures are within rangee, the pump, pressure regulator, etc are working, however if things are low in ALL test parts, a bad pump, dirty filter or bad fluid or regulator could be the fault. If a specific test is not within range, then it is possible that a solenoid is bad/weak or a hydrolic circuit for one of the clutches is leaking, and so on.

[wayne petty]

this is interesting...

but it only has a 100 pound gauge...

http://www.harborfreight.com/engine-oil-pressure-test-kit-98949.html


this one seems to have a much shorter hose..

http://www.harborfreight.com/engine-oil-pressure-tester-92687.html

again with the 100 psi gauge...  probably not enough.. but.. the first one is almost a deal just for the various adaptors..


here is another tech link thats important..

http://julien.manche.online.fr/chrysler/a604/a604_codes.html

[wvcab]

code scan...

700 and 740     transmission controller, and tcc seleniod

[wayne petty]

code scan...

700 and 740     transmission controller, and tcc seleniod

i just send your direct email another 4 meg file...

you will really want to have a printed copy with your scan tool...

pages 220 to 264....  this gives you what each sensor should be displaying..

look for trouble code 38 in the A604 shop manual i sent you ... ...  as close as i could get with what i found...



does your scan tool.... look at live data?/ from the transmission???

what brand and model scan tool .. so i can look up a users manual..

[wvcab]

wayne,

I have jumped from electrical troubleshooting to mechanical.....

i pulled the pan, grabbed a pint jar to catch the fluid to take a look at it...

it looked sparkley,  so i finished pulling the pan, it looks like the magic dust has leaked out  and some big chunks inside....


I did a filter and oil change on this transmission in december, and nothing looked out of the ordinary then...

[Crosley.In.AZ]

gosh, wonder if that is a gear train failure or converter?