A gas thrifty rod... sort of

[Mac]

What-a-y'all think of this concept? These are based on Honda 500/650cc water cooled, shaft driven drive trains.

I'm thinkin' maybe `27 T glass body roadster, turtle deck modified into more of a boat tail and Goldwing 1200 drive train with the power plant UNDER the hood -not perched on top of the front axle.

Of course, then again I have images of "Laugh In's" Arty Johnson falling over on his ear on his tricycle

[GPster]

The idea is not all that odd. Look up Morgan Plus 3. The one with the top of a "Deuce" grill is probably powered by a Motto Gussi V twin which was not only shaft-drive but some of them also had automatic transmissions. If you didn't go over-board you could look for a "Silver Wing"which could you the traverse "V" twin and shaft drive. You might even look arround for a 750 Hondamatic to get an automatic transmission. One of my ideas when I first started re-couperating was to build a 3/4 size Morgan Plus 3 modeled after the real early models and use a CM 400 A Hondamatic for power. Still got the bike but fear of the others on the road slowed the project to a skreetching halt. GPster

[unklian]

I saw a guy last spring at a show in Hamburg NY.
He built himself a Morgan inspired car,with some modern lines and features,using a transverse Harley motor in front attatched to a VW transaxle to give him front wheel drive.

[Mac]

The blue model pictured is either CX500 or 650 powered. The white one uses a Guzzi 1100. I've ridden a Silverwing 500 for 12 yrs or so but an inner ear condition makes 2 wheeling a real risk in the last couple of yrs. I get unpredictable bouts of vertigo. It's up for sale. Still I long for an open air ride and lately have been keen on the idea of a roadster. This 3 wheel idea might scratch both itches. The thought of cobbling something together starting with a T roadster body is appealing too. I'm thinking that a T bod basis will end up heavier than one of these purpose built kits and could use 1200cc at least to have any kind of "spirited" performance.  And manual shift is just fine with me.

Mac

[Mac]

I saw a guy last spring at a show in Hamburg NY.
He built himself a Morgan inspired car,with some modern lines and features,using a transverse Harley motor in front attatched to a VW transaxle to give him front wheel drive.

Do you mean a Type I VW and that would mean rear wheel steer? You can't mean later gen. water cooled car transaxle -that would put the H-D engine in conventional (for a Harley) fore & aft position.

Mac

[unklian]

Type 1 (aircooled) IRS transaxle,mounted in front.Axles,spindles,and steering from some latemodel, frontwheel drive,adapted to give front wheel steering,4 speeds forward,plus reverse.Motor hangs out in front like a Morgan.

Both axles would be the same length,to minimize torque steer.
No problems trying to extend the factory torque tube,like on a bike.
Using a 914(?) Porshe gearbox would give you 5 speeds.

Not sure if he bought the engine-transmission adapter,or made his own.




Rear wheel steering is unstable at speed.

[GPster]

I've been reminded occasionally to think about what I say first then maybe I won't get my foot in my mouth so often. I've been thinking about this for days and please don't take this as any more than statements of some facts that I would at least like you to be aware of at the start rather than get though a build and find out that what you built might not satisfy your desire. These things are not '32 Ford 3 window coupes and their hole in the marketplace is small evough that their value to anyone is small so it had better be valuable to you.  A 3-wheel anything is NOT a motorcycle. You do not lean into corners. The speed control and a part of your braking probably will not be controlled by your hands. The steering as-well-as not being controlled by body language (lean) is probably going to be controlled by a wheel  that has some ratio for ease but no longer has the AIM that a set of handlebars does. Probably the closest thing to a motorcycle with 3-wheels would be one with one of the leaning side-cars but unless you go to side-car modifications on the front end it will steer hard and you will loose the nimbleness and the sleekness because of that extra wheel out there. Another point that will strike you is where you're sitting. The majority of motorcycles are going to have your butt 28" or more from the ground. Some of these creations are going to have your seat maybe 12" from the ground which will usually put your eye-level about mid-way on the door of the SUV that wants to pass that dumb vehicle taking up his road. You might loose the "biker" advantage of being able to look all around if you go to a vehicle like this. You might also loose the piece of mind with a passenger seat right beside you. These are only facts. You might want to down-play their existance or engineer around them but at least know that they exist. Now, there is some interest in narrowing "T" bodies to create single-seater tubs. If you were to take a '26 or '27 roadster and narrow it you might make it so any other narrowing of the "turtle-deck" for style wouldn't be necessary. Might even cut-out the rear fender recesses so you could see the rear wheel from both sides. I personally like the engine sitting clear out front and it would be to some advantage if you used an air-cooled motorcycle engine but that is a personal taste. On the subject of front wheel driving it I say a picture of one in a book of assorted motorcycles one time. I belive that it was listed as a mid 30s BSA (although it may not have been "THE BSA"). It was of the eary Morgan style but with a full-independent front end. I would think that any idea to put a Harley motor on a VW transaxel would be complicated and it would probably need to be done with a primary chain because the Harley clutch and starter ring-gear are on the Harley transmission. There is no flywheel on Harley output shafts, just a sprocket. The idea of using a "BUG" engine and transaxel means you would have to change the thing around end-for-end. That would be nice to get the shifter of the transaxel near the driver and the engine out front BUT everything would drive in the wrong direction. You can only correct for that problem with the early transaxels by taking the ring-gear out of the housing and putting it on the other side of the pinion gear. You can only do that with the early boxes that had the swing axel rear suspension. To make a set-up to use a Bug set up for front wheel drive you would have to use the later ones with independent rear suspension and that would put your engine behind the front axel and your shifter behind the front bumper. Doc Chop built a front wheel drive 3 wheeler using a Cad or Olds Toronado set-up but that might be considered overkill. One idea in the back of my mind is Subaru. I think they have their engines mounted with the crankshaft in-line with the chassis rather than transverse like a lot of other front wheel drives do. Another added feature might be that there is a lot of people changing these engines into 2 cylinder engines for altra-lite airplanes. That might make it a shorter power-plant and still give you enough power. Now to qualify thes facts and ideas.  I was a motorcycle rider. I had a small accident in '93 that I got up and got back on the bike after. When I passed out on the bike about 45 mile later it proved that I had not made a good decission. When I came out of the coma in 3 months and out of the hospital in 5 months a lot of these ideas started to gell. I have about 8 years in gathering this information. I understand balance problems because that is one of the symptions Of TBI that I have. Time on a motorcycle before the accident and time walking sidewalks until 6 months ago has done nothing to dispell my fear of other motorists. Five years and 17,000 miles in the seat of a side car have made strong in my mind the problems of having your seat too close to the ground. Steering the sidecar is hard and it's not like riding a motorcycle and the fact that you are always riding two-up was a fact that was brought forth by my wife who gave up her solo riding to usher me arround and eventually had to give it all up because of the steering stength needed for the car. I have lots of ideas but there is not very much interest in them. You might have made a mistake by opening this door. GPster

[Mac]

GPster,

I always read your posts with interest and following the RRT now for some time I've learned about your accident and long road back to mobile independence. BTW let me say "good on ya" for, what must have been, a hard fought achievement. So I respect where your coming from and this is just the kind of feedback I was looking for by my post.

I've been a motorcyclist for over 35 years, without accident (geez, don't invite trouble -quick knock on wood). I've tried my hand with a sidecar and I know what a chore that can be. A real wrestling match that changes dramaticly depending wether you have a passenger along in "the chair" or solo. Found myself straddling the crown of the road just to get a break from the isometrics. That compounds the scooter riding risks pretty seriously.

Yeah, sitting eye level with somebody's chrome 20 would be intimidating but probly not too different from a Bug Eye Sprite or Miata. I once owned a Fiat 600. That also will tell you I'm not concerned with resale value.

I got this new pipedream seeing a guy on a 70's style VW powered trike (cycle front) recently. I think I like the single trailing wheel arrangement better cuz it looks to be more inherently stable having the pair out at the leading end. No engineering background just a gut sense. A water cooled plant that can be underhood has more appeal. I'm not fond of the engine hangin out in the breeze look -a la Morgan. Also I'd like to keep the weight down / MPG up so a Goldwing engine-trans-rear assy with maybe buggy spring - straight axle or tubular arm MII w/ coilovers front end might be just the ticket.

I'm guessing road manners would be gross oversteer with half the amount of suspension and contact patch out back. Maybe someone can speak to this?
One worry that needs research is that PA is not known for being unorthodox vehicle friendly. I invite opinions on this too.
I rationalize that I could bring this in on a small budget with a salvaged Wing, T body (low end of the body market), front end kit and home fabbed frame. Oh, and a bunch of creative wrenching fun.

One long-winded poster to another, Mac

[GPster]

OK more odd ideas. Part of the Morgan idea for me was the two wheels in the front where I could see them. I've got one eye that sees just fine but it looks funny. To keep me from having double vision my glasses don't correct it so on top of being "cross-eyed" I have no depth perseption. I thought that with the wheels in front of me I could see what I hit with them rather than guessing what was going on behind me. one short idea on licenseing it. Get a Gold Wing title and the frame to go with the engine. If you go the front wheel drive route use the front of the frame and the forks for the single wheel rear suspension. The numbers on the neck should match the title then you would have a re-constructed vehicle rather than a self-constructed vehicle. For the drive arrangement how about running the Honda driveshaft into a make-shift transfer case then run another driveshaft foreward to a 4X4 front end. Before the small 4X4s got independent front ends some of the foreign trucks had a small front axel. Depending on how much this thing weighs and how much caster you run on the front axel, maybe you could steer it with handlebars rather than a steering wheel. Then it might seem more like a motorcycle.GPster

[58 Yeoman]

I had a neighbor that was a VW/Harley freak (I was just a VW freak) that had a beater VW trike.  His was awful light in the front end, definitely needed some wheelie bars to keep the front wheel on the ground. Maybe it was just that one, I don't remember the particulars about it.

[Mac]

GPster,
Good point about re-constructed vs self-constructed. Maybe all it would take is to incorporate the neck tube w/ VIN somewhere into the thing.

Yoeman,
No, I think any of the VW trike designs -unless it has some massive front end- are wheelie prone with all that engine weight hangin back behind the rear axle.

Mac

[enjenjo]

Several years ago, I used to see a motorcycle based three wheel car on my daily commute. It used the motorcycle rear wheel and frame including engine in the rear, and a two place enclosed body in front with two wheels steering. Now I don't remember the details, but when turning, it leaned like a motorcycle. I don't recall if it was incorporated into the steering linkage or not, but it was strange following it down the road. I believe it had an F model Honda drivetrain.

[GPster]

If you don't care where the engine is you could take the forks off and use the frame neck (with numbers) as part of the structure for the back of the driver's seat. Make a sub-frame with 2 wheels, suspension, steering and seat and run it all in front of the engine. You could use you handlebars for steering and have long cables made for your throttle and clutch. If you find a front brake mater cylinder that ran a set of dual-disc front brakes you could work one disc on each front wheel. This set-up would probably work better with a water cooled engine and with everything in the back assembled like a motorcycle there would probably be less question as to the authenticity of the title. Think about this for a while. GPster