The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: msuguydon on July 27, 2008, 10:08:02 AM
Went to take the Tuna boat for one last trip to the Indiana DQ last night and it would not start. First time it turned over, tried to start but would not. Then after that every time I would turn the key.. fast clicking... thought maybe I had a battery problem. Got the jumpers out... with the jumper cables connected.. I turned the key.. BAM... loud noise ... almost a back fire... being a Team Smart member I tried again.. Bam.. same noise.. of course trying to really reinforce my status in Team smart... I tried a third time.. it started...
Drove around a bit... came home.. put it back in the garage.
Talked with my car buddies.. said it sounded like a starter going bad. They told me give the starter a good wack with a wrench...
I tried to start the car this morning.. turned the key.. bam... same odd noise.. now lots of clicking... wacked the starter .. with a hammer.. nothing really changed..
I have lights, radio.. volt gauge says I am getting a good 12volts.
Starter... I have to move starting tuesday.. how difficult is it to change a starter?
Tip, thoughts, advice please..
350 chevy small block.. mid 80's vintage.
disconnect the battery, there are 2 bolts holding the starter up to the block and disconnect the wires to the solenoid. that's it. it could be just a bad solenoid. take the starter off and take it to auto zone and have it tested
Quote from: "57larry"disconnect the battery, there are 2 bolts holding the starter up to the block and disconnect the wires to the solenoid. that's it. it could be just a bad solenoid. take the starter off and take it to auto zone and have it tested
Your real time update, the starter is out..... now off to the auto zone... wish me luck..
Viva Team Smart!
there is a way to test the starter on the ground.... with jumper cables or a jumper box....
hook up the black lead to the front of the starter .. or over the ears that hold the solenoid to the nose... never to the back plate that covers the brushes...
touch the red wire to the lower large post on the solenoid.. this should make the starter spin at full speed.... except of mopar starters let it run a few seconds...(mopar starters tend to hand grenade when tested unloaded)
let the motor come to a stop... then touch the red to the S terminal... ( 3 o clock on gm solenoids) this should cause the drive pinion to extend.. the motor may start to spin slowly... test it 4 or 5 times.. but not for more than a few seconds...
then put the red wire to the top post on the solenoid... and use a screw driver or open the jaws and touch both at the same time ... this should extend and cause the motor to spin at the same time....
i just don't understand the noise you are hearing unless something is broken...
it is possible that the brushes are worn down...
if you look at the circuit for the starter... the battery connects to the top... the ignition switch solenoid connects to the S terminal... this pulls the plunger in to lever the pinion drive gear into the flywheel... just as it reaches max... the plunger hits the button at the back of the solenoid bore... this forces the contact disc out to close the circuit...and spin the starter motor...
this is done this way to get the drive pinion into the flywheel before the starter starts to turn... ...
the other thing that is missed... is the S terminal is grounded through the bottom terminal.. (through the brushes and armature.) bad /worn brushes no solenoid action.. this does more than one thing.. it also reduces the amont of current flowing through the solenoid circuit...
also check the drive pinion for one way operation... if it spins really free... it may be failing... there are usually 5 rollers that are spring loaded into a sprag sort of assembly. when the gear freewheels in the free direction too freely.. try to see if it will go in the other direction ... if it goes at all... it has worn out...
oh.. and the terminal at 9 o clock is the by pass circuit that feeds full battery voltage to the ign coil + while the engine is cranking... on cars that came with points... the ign switch disconnects the power to the coil + when it is in the crank position.. ( for those with dash mounted ign switches and electronic ign.. you might look at going to a 75 up chevy/gmc step van ignition switch... those should not break the ign 1 power during cranking.. just a thought
gm starters are easy to take apart... and brushes are available at most parts stores... as are repair kits... if you ask for them...
Well I am back from the auto zone, its not the starter...
Wayne thanks for the info.
I am not sure if I am happy or sad... I will start putting the starter back in... if you guys have any ideas.. please share... I checked the cable from the battery to the starter and there were not obvious breaks or anything.. looks pretty new. I am gonna clean the battery terminals.. I guess it could be the battery??
Yeh, but did you get your taillights fixed? I wonder about AZ's check. I'd think it would be hard to check a starter unless you put it under load (cranking). To me it sounds like the solenoid. The clicking sound if it's not a dead battery is sometime the solenoid not pulling clear in to make contact for the starter motor itself. I have seen where the starter teeth and the flywheel teeth won't mesh and the starter won't work because the solenoid won't travel far enough to put the starter teeth in the flywheel and make final contact. Sometimes if this happens you can turn the engine a bit (by turning the raditor fan) to line up a different set of teeth. If it doesn't start when you get the starter back in it will get figured out. This is one of the reasons that we all wanted standard shift in the old days and we used to ride around with a bunch of people in the car
ok the starter is back in... now I get nothing, I think I missed wired the thing... no clicking.. nothing... I did the cardinal sin.. I didn't pay attention to how its wired... UGGG.... gonna take a break... and cool off, I have a green wire with red end... a pink wire.. another green wire and the cable coming from the battery.. please help... and no I did not get the tail lights fixed yet.
Quote from: "msuguydon"ok the starter is back in... now I get nothing, I think I missed wired the thing... no clicking.. nothing... I did the cardinal sin.. I didn't pay attention to how its wired... UGGG.... gonna take a break... and cool off, I have a green wire with red end... a pink wire.. another green wire and the cable coming from the battery.. please help... and no I did not get the tail lights fixed yet.
Did this part get rewired too? If it did the we're probably going to need to know where those smaller wires go. Do you still have every thing else working? It might just be that you reversed the two smaller wires. It was in neutral or park, right? GPster
Quote from: "GPster"Quote from: "msuguydon"ok the starter is back in... now I get nothing, I think I missed wired the thing... no clicking.. nothing... I did the cardinal sin.. I didn't pay attention to how its wired... UGGG.... gonna take a break... and cool off, I have a green wire with red end... a pink wire.. another green wire and the cable coming from the battery.. please help... and no I did not get the tail lights fixed yet.
Did this part get rewired too? If it did the we're probably going to need to know where those smaller wires go. Do you still have every thing else working? It might just be that you reversed the two smaller wires. It was in neutral or park, right? GPster
yes it was in park... everything else works, radio. headlights etc.. its a delco 1109061
There is one large termianl post at noon. one smaller post at 9:00 o clock and one at 3:00 oclock (this one is closet to the block)
Purple wire, battery cable and all green w/ red end connected to noon...
All Green at 9:oo oclock..
Quote from:
one large termianl post at noon. one smaller post at 9:00 o clock and one at 3:00 oclock (this one is closet to the block)
Purple wire, battery cable and all green w/ red end connected to noon...
All Green at 9:oo oclock..[/quote
yes but did it work like that..
the 12 o clock post get the battery cable... sometimes one or 2 wires to feed the car with power...
the 9 o clock post is R that is the feed to the + side of the coil.
the 3 O clock post (closest to the block) is the wire from the ign switch that is active only when the key it turned.. ... and usually purple.. but who knows on your car...
i hope you can get this thing fixed....
wayne..
if not call me while you are under there.. i will send my number via pm....
two of the three wires coming from the car have large hole connectors on the end... I am assuming these would connect to the noon terminal as it is the larger post.. the other wire.. has a small hole connector, I currently have it connect to the nine but am trying to move it too 3.. problem is the nut is spinning and I cannot get it off..ugg I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo frustrated....
Quote from: "wayne petty"Quote from:
one large termianl post at noon. one smaller post at 9:00 o clock and one at 3:00 oclock (this one is closet to the block)
Purple wire, battery cable and all green w/ red end connected to noon...
All Green at 9:oo oclock..[/quote
yes but did it work like that..
the 12 o clock post get the battery cable... sometimes one or 2 wires to feed the car with power...
the 9 o clock post is R that is the feed to the + side of the coil.
the 3 O clock post (closest to the block) is the wire from the ign switch that is active only when the key it turned.. ... and usually purple.. but who knows on your car...
i hope you can get this thing fixed....
wayne..
if not call me while you are under there.. i will send my number via pm....
I quit for the day.... 4 days till I move and I am stuck... uggg.. I do not need this right now... got rear ended on Friday by a 18 wheeler at a traffic light.. in my 6 month old GMC...... don't need that either... thanks for letting me vent...
All the wires with big terminals go with the battery wire. I'm not surprised that there is only one more wire. Because your engine has HEI there would be no need for the other wire because you wouldn't have a "HOT" wire going to the coil on a points ignition. If I understand your problem on getting the little wire off the solenoid that points to the solenoid being questionable. Tose small terminals are like carrage bolts and when they turn they might have the wire turned off of them on the inside or their top, which is a terminal could be loose and out of place. I think you should pull the starter off again. GPster
Quote from: "GPster"I think you should pull the starter off again. GPster
Your killing me man... I got no time for that.....
Sometimes starters test good with no load and when you put the load of trying to start the engine they do not respond
a pic of the starter through and through
if the wire is stuck on the stud... and the nut just spins... the studs on some starters are different sizes... this might be why you are having problems...
Quote from: "reborn55"Sometimes starters test good with no load and when you put the load of trying to start the engine they do not respond
I think I have found the problem.... :( :lol:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/msuguydon/P7280003.jpg)
Soooo... I got my wiring figured out.. hit the old key and boom... pieces on the driveway....sooooo... either I did not install the starter correctly or.... I had a problem... can the plunger.. over travel.. was that the boom I was hearing? anyway.... roll back is coming tomorrow.. my mechanic is on call.. got to get it fixed before I leave for tampa.. so it can sit in storage.. fixed... :roll: I am such a gold chainer...
I wonder if I can be captain of Team Smart.
Thanks guys for all your help, I mean that... two years ago I would have never pulled a starter and reinstalled.. I have come a long way.. much at the expense of this board....
Ohhh welll.. live and learn...
Quote from: "msuguydon"Quote from: "reborn55"Sometimes starters test good with no load and when you put the load of trying to start the engine they do not respond
I think I have found the problem.... :( :lol:
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/msuguydon/P7280003.jpg)
Soooo... I got my wiring figured out.. hit the old key and boom... pieces on the driveway....sooooo... either I did not install the starter correctly or.... I had a problem... can the plunger.. over travel.. was that the boom I was hearing? anyway.... roll back is coming tomorrow.. my mechanic is on call.. got to get it fixed before I leave for tampa.. so it can sit in storage.. fixed... :roll: I am such a gold chainer...
I wonder if I can be captain of Team Smart.
Thanks guys for all your help, I mean that... two years ago I would have never pulled a starter and reinstalled.. I have come a long way.. much at the expense of this board....
Ohhh welll.. live and learn...
Hey i have an extra one of those if you need it, maybe two if i look way back under the workbench where I threw one years ago. When you get a new starter make sure it's the right one. I found out the hard way there's more than one starter for a SBC..... :oops:
I see the problem......your using Budweiser on your starter......they need Coors to operate properly :-o :lol: :lol:
darn "Chainers" :shock:
Vance
the starter noses are available...at most starter rebuilders....
some of the heavy duty truck electric shops will also have them....
they usually sell for 20 bucks...
or get a whole starter....
i wish i had bought a bunch of those before the independant starter parts place got put out of business by the multinational who requires you to get 3 letters from your closest competetors that you are not stepping on their toes...
I am guessing that there is not a starter Brace on your car because " everyone knows you don't need it" Get one at the dealer, under $5, and have your mechanic put it on. It prevents the starter nose breaking off.
I think it was probably cracked when you took it off before, but no one saw it.
so today just as the earthquake went off here... and yes it was rocking and a rolling...
i was working on the boat captains starter... on his 73 C20 crewcab 350..
he had been having problems with his truck eating starters for a long time...
he even went as far installing a dual batterys .. with those cheep plastic key switches to turn each one off...
he pulled out a spare starter that had previously been on this truck... but the nose was cracked... i carefully scraped out a tiny bit of mica/? out from between the commutator segments. then lightly sanded it to get it smooth.. touched up the brushes... lightly greased it up... swapped the nose off the low torque unit from the truck... i then took the front off the solenoid... cleaned the contact disc... the studs.. greased the disc plunger shaft... lightly... reassembled the solenoid.. used some sil glide trailer ball lube on the big plunger sides... wire brushing the pair of leads that come up out of the case on both sides... wire brushing the ends of the spacer and screw... then assembling the unit... i then ran it with my booster box.. first the motor only... then the solenoid only.. then both...
i then put it in... you would not believe how nice it starts..
now... how to tell if you have a high torque starter... the little tabs that stick up out of the back of the case... if it is one layer thick... it is low torque... if it is 2 layers thick it is a high torque...
the high torque cases have the leads sticking out within an inch of the brush end... the low torque cases have the lead sticking up out of the larger diameter section.. up the step.....
if someone trys to sell you a 3508 starter... ask for a 3510... unless you have a straight 6 it will fit...
the low torque starters also have armatures that are almost 3/4" smaller in diameter.. you cannot tell from the outside.. except for the amount of power leads/tabs sticking out..
there is a difference in a 3510 and a 3510M M is for metric... i dont know what year they did it.. but some small block chevys use metric bolts to hold the starter to the block... look to see if the starter bolts have 6 hash marks on the head. or numbers like 10.9 or 12.9.,. the numbered are metric.. 10mmx1.5 pitch... warning.. warning... warning... if you try to put metric bolts into a block threaded SAE ... you will split the block.. and ruin it... forever.. unless you like cobbled...
the 3510M starter motors are also drilled for 10mm... so it you use a 3/8" bolt ... they will slide around... and never be right...
what else... if your starter uses 5/16 inch nuts on the S and R terminals.. use them... it will annoy the next guy except it might be you.. and then you can just use your 4 way screwdriver with the large tip removed...
also dorman motormite makes a starter shield for gm starter solenoids...
#45629 Solve hot start problems on GM vehicles by shielding starter solenoid from exhaust heat
i think that you need longer 1/4-20 screws to properly install these.. i did not get one on this truck...
oh... and the low torque starter that i took off.. when i opened it... the commutator segments had melted and smeared till one touched the next and the next.. so all the windings were getting power at the same time...
this must of made the magnetic fields from the armature insane.. pulling so much current and pulling in all directions at the same time..
what else... i hope this post helps someone.....
I don't remember but is this motor a 283 or a 350? If 350 quit monkeying around with the old type starter and buy a GM mini starter. They cost a bit more depending on where you get it. Sometimes a bit over $200, but they hold up and don't heat sink