The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: J Man on September 12, 2007, 06:20:46 PM
What is stronger, a I beam or tube axle?
Also is there anyone that makes narrowed beam axles? Like Crosley sized narrow?
My vote goes for I beam. I always thought tube axles were pretty strong until I saw this picture of a wrecked T bucket. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Don
I'd have to agree if every circumstance was like the one pictured. But what about the effects of welding and the fact that it is between two weld joints and the leverage that a force on the tire would have had. What about the effects of the chrome? If that was a hard and fast reason then sprint cars would have "I" beam axels. I would expect that everyone has their favorites and has there reasons but maybe your question has to be narrowed down some. Maybe the KING can tell you about the welding on one. I think the Star(?) has a narrowed axel. GPster
Quote from: "J Man"What is stronger, a I beam or tube axle?
Also is there anyone that makes narrowed beam axles? Like Crosley sized narrow?
How you want to locate it might have an influence on which one you can use,
Sum
Stronger can mean many things. In the example above, the axle broke, but it didn't bend. My guess it was mistreated, which caused it to break. Bad welding, improper heat treat, and improper repairs could cause it.
I have never seen an axle break under normal use, tube or I beam, but it's certainly possible.
Am I beam will bend easier than a tube, and can be straightened in most cases.
I have used both, and will continue to do so.
wow what an image..i do realize that the T bucket impacted an object..
i'm thinking of hydrogen embrittlement, no stress relieving at all on a chrome moly part.... i'am not a metalergest but i am also not an ostrage.
chrome moly parts need to be stressrelieved. that means baking at 1100F or so... for several hours. this allows the stresses put into the chrome moly by welding need to be evened out..welding changes the hardness of the metal accdording to the distance from the weld.. chrome moly will not usually crack unreleived close to the weld, an inch or more away is the norm...this depends on the heat involved in the weld...
the area next to the welds has a differnt temper. than the areas away from the welds... chrome moly is raw is not finished... it needs additional work to gain it's ultimate strength and durability
your childrens and grandchildrens chrome moly bicycle motorcross forks are made out of chrome moly... look up broken fork .com your loved ones have been sacrified to save some heat treeting. rembember the word. "endo" ...
back to the rant... if i have said to much please delete this post...
properly heat treeted /stress releived chrome moly can be bent 180 degrees without breaking...even through welded joints..
i called nhra when T/F,F/C frames started breaking...i saw the video of the accident that paralized the T/F pilot during a run in england... they told me SFI writes the spects. they told me that chassie mfgs use reverse polairty to pull the heat out of the welds so nothing else is necessary....
i on my own a few years ago found several heat treeting companys around the country that have ovens big enough to place a complete top fuel chassie..and were willing to do it.... they specialized in aircraft parts... my calls even got a responce from don garlits in drive magazine...who still missed my point about heat treeting in his editoral. just double up the tubes.
so everybody who cares, do a little research on hydrogen embrittlement of chromed parts... and stress releiving of chrome moly parts used in critical load carrying componants...
oh yea...
and does anybody make airodynamic covers from i beam axles to cut down on the drag at speed... i guess nobody have ever seen the airodymamic chrome moly tubing at aircraft spruce....
Wayne, I'm pretty sure that someone at NHRA was full of it. The standard has always been to take a rosebud and heat the area around the weld until you could melt a temp chalk. I can't remember now but it was either 500 or 600 degrees. I was told when I started building cars in 1977 that the roll cage area was all that needed to be relieved. From years of building cars, the only real problem I saw was when a car wasn't suspended properly in a trailer when hauling. I blocked mine so it couldn't move. 4130 has a definant life span so everything you do to stabilize a chassis from moving will help. I'm sure that complete stress relieving would help but it's out of reach for most racers and builders.
I seem to recall reading an article on stress relieving a chassis for sprint cars(?) that involved the use of a table that the chassis sat on for an hour or 3. I do not recall what was used to relieve the chassis stress..
This was used to make the chassis more 'neutral' and easier to tune to the track surface.
Quote from: "Crosley"I seem to recall reading an article on stress relieving a chassis for sprint cars(?) that involved the use of a table that the chassis sat on for an hour or 3. I do not recall what was used to relieve the chassis stress..
This was used to make the chassis more 'neutral' and easier to tune to the track surface.
was it a "vibration " table?
ultrasonic, perhaps?
btw, i've always thought mild steel was better for the common guy and for street use.
Since we are talking axles here, anyone want to chime in on forged vs cast I beams as to pro and cons? Henrys were forged, right? Tom...
Quote from: "tom36"Since we are talking axles here, anyone want to chime in on forged vs cast I beams as to pro and cons? Henrys were forged, right? Tom...
If i remember right from discussions on the HAMB super bell are cast and C/E are forged ? I know there is a difference and ive used em both but i tend to like the S/B axle better.. As far as that tube axle it sure looks brittle to me? I wonder how it got that way but its not mine so I dont have to worry... :lol: The only tube axles I like are the ones with the cast ends welded into the tube. We have a guy at work here that had a t bucket and im thinking it was a Total performance kit . I do know it was a kit and the axle had the eyes for the king pins welded on the ends of the axle. He just got off the highway one day and came to a stop when one side broke right off the axle.. :!: That scares the hell outta me just thinking about it . :!: Also if you go with a tube axle with the cast or forged ends however they do it that are welded in most of el accept regular perch pins and stuff so you dont have to do any more welding on the axle that could cause brittleness etc. That axle even though it broke broke where the most load is outside the spring mounts.. And if the guy did hit something as it looks that way if it just broke the axle then good for him.. break away stuff just like racing :!:
Dave
Dave and I followed the same thread on the HAMB. The CE axle is the only forging on the market. I'm a believer in forgings over castings so I bought a CE. Dave, why do you prefer SuperB?
Quote from: "kb426"Dave and I followed the same thread on the HAMB. The CE axle is the only forging on the market. I'm a believer in forgings over castings so I bought a CE. Dave, why do you prefer SuperB?
I knew someone would ask that.. Lay em out one on top of the other.. The C/E is a really heavy axle The S/B is a lighter axle. Its more the size of henrys origonal axle and i believe it gives a better ride :?: Maybe more flex :?: I had a C/E under my 30 a sedan and it rode ok but it looked heavy and was heavier than S/B ............. So unsprung weight and sprung weight and yada yada yada... Also ive run a few of em and no problems ever.. Maybe its an appearence thing too.
Dave
ps: the best riding car I ever built had a Mor drop Origional model a axle dropped like 2 1/2 and I had speedway motors t bucket coils in the rear with home made mounts for the coils and shocks.. Really it rode good and you could go 120 and take your hands of the wheel..
Glad I'm building a truck so it won't look out of place. :lol:
Quote from: "kb426"Glad I'm building a truck so it won't look out of place. :lol:
It will look fine.. i ran one under the 30 a sedan .. I did have fenders though..
Its just an eye candy thing for some but I really do think the S/B axles give a better ride cause of the weight.. Just remember im not that smart but i do know seat of the pants feel..
Dave :lol:
You really want to mess up your mind. Ford I beam axles were forged, the Ford tube axles were cast, in one piece :shock: They were not cast iron, but cast steel.
Quote from: "enjenjo"You really want to mess up your mind. Ford I beam axles were forged, the Ford tube axles were cast, in one piece :shock: They were not cast iron, but cast steel.
If I remember correctly The Forged "I" beams are made in Canada by the same company that forged them for Ford. When the first started to appear I believe there was one company (in NY state?) that had the distributing rights to them and everyone one that had them was getting them from the same place. I believe CE has the rights to them now and if you by a forged axel from anyone they're coming through CE. This is just how I have put the story together from what information I've gathered. GPster
so, does anyone make a reallllly narrow beam axle? Something that would give me a 40" tread width.
Quote from: "J Man"so, does anyone make a reallllly narrow beam axle? Something that would give me a 40" tread width.
Sure doesn't look like it. I have a friend that made a front engine rear wheel drive out of a one-off VW dune buggy creation. At the start he used an early Econoline front axel that he narrowed between the sprind pads and welded. He didn't have any trouble with it and ran it until he desided he wanted to 4wd it. What kind of spinles, brakes and suspension do you plan on running? If you weld one together you'd probably ought to 4 bar it because radius rods would allow that twisting motion in the center and the short distance between the radius rod ends would exagerate it even more. To complicate things even more the dropped "I" beam axels are a copy of the '32 - "36 width and spring/radius rod mounting. they had the shortest distance between radius rod bosses and the longest distance from the bosses to the kingpins. If you were going to try and narrow one you might be better to use a '41 - '48 as it will have the longest distance between the bosses. Also keep in mind that being that narrow a tread width the back/inside of your tires might hit something on a sharp corner turn. If you're planing this for a Crosley I'd be thinking about "struts". McPherson had an idea. GPster
here is a link to narrow axles...
http://markwilliams.com/Catalog/pg75.pdf
http://markwilliams.com
Quote from: "GPster"If you're planing this for a Crosley I'd be thinking about "struts". McPherson had an idea. GPster
It would be for the Crosley. Could you explain more on the McPherson thing. Also on the spindles brakes, not sure yet. Maybe Ford with aftermarket disc brakes.
Go to Art Morrissons's or Strange Engineering's websites and see what they have to offer. I've put some on supergas class cars before. You'll need a jig to hold the spindle in place and then fab around them with tubing for mounts. They have different bends of tubing to make your life easier. THey use light weight hubs on them which is a plus if you're concerned about unsprung weight.
when I look at that axle picture 2 things come to mind . Hydrogen embrittlement from the chroming ,and possibly the reversed spindle suicide mount axle caused the ackerman to be way off . I cant tell if the steering arms were bent to correct the ackerman or not .Could years of use with incorrect(possibly backwards) ackerman angle cause stress cracking or would it just burn up tires on cornering? When I was at the march meet in 2005 I took a picture of a suicide axle with the ackerman backwards on a T in the parking lot. I wanted to show my students the photo to show that just because some things bolt together that doesnt mean that it has to work properly.
Id bet the wrong akerman would just chew the tires up.. That pic had some failure driver made or other..
Dave
What kind of axle does and early Anglia have? Anyone know how wide it is?
I am sure a tube axle could be narrowed how about a beam axle? would it be safe?
Quote from: "J Man"What kind of axle does and early Anglia have? Anyone know how wide it is?
I am sure a tube axle could be narrowed how about a beam axle? would it be safe?
They have a little tiny I beam, with a wishbone and transverse spring. The tread width is about 48" I have an axle only in my pile of parts.
I think I found just the thing you're looking for at K-Zoo...I remember asking Dave to take a photo of it ....( he has a "High-tech" camera...Lots more buttons than mine ..) Did Dave remember :?: :?: :?:
Quote from: "UGLY OLDS"I think I found just the thing you're looking for at K-Zoo...I remember asking Dave to take a photo of it ....( he has a "High-tech" camera...Lots more buttons than mine ..) Did Dave remember :?: :?: :?:
Bob I looked a couple times and all I saw was independant stuff.. Maybe i shoulda came and got you to show me eggxactly where it was.. Sorry pal.
Dave
J-Man...What I saw looked like a S/B tube axle about 36" wide...Had spring perch & king pin holes in the proper places...As I remember the spindles & tie rod & drag link was there also...Same size as on a real front end ...only narrower....It was part of the Borgenson steering joint display..They had it set up to show how all the front end components work together....I remember seeing someplace that S/B will make any width tube axle you want.....Hope it helps.......
Ugly Olds
I know MAS will make any width tube axle, then S/B would give me another option. I will keep that in mind if I decide to go with a tube. I just prefer the look of a beam axle.
Enjenjo
I am headed up your way probibly Sunday to pick up a A frame section If you will be around maybe I could stop by and check out that axle. Let me know if you will be around.
Quote from: "J Man"Enjenjo
I am headed up your way probibly Sunday to pick up a A frame section If you will be around maybe I could stop by and check out that axle. Let me know if you will be around.
Actually I just realized I am buying that frame section from your son so I will going to your place anyways.
I'll be here.
Quote from: "J Man"
I know MAS will make any width tube axle,
Have an understanding with MAS on how you want the axel built. They made one for me and took the narrowness off the ends. Made it very hard to come up with steering arms for the spindles. GPster
Just to clear up the picture of the axle I posted.......the car was actually in a wreck. Supposely, some girl borrowed her roommates T while he was out of town, went to a gas station, then punched it hard (blower motor) and ended up hitting parked cars. That is what tore the front end off, but I posted it because I had never seen an axle snap like that. I thought it would bend around first before snapping.
Here is another picture of the same car. I wonder if they are still roommates??????????
Don
Quote from: "GPster"Quote from: "J Man"
I know MAS will make any width tube axle,
Have an understanding with MAS on how you want the axel built. They made one for me and took the narrowness off the ends. Made it very hard to come up with steering arms for the spindles. GPster
Mas has the kingpin eyes welded on the ends.. Sorry but the only way im gonna run one like that is in a sprint car with a bunch of chrome molly around me.. Its like running rod ends on the street for steering stuff. Its done but its better on a race car where your at least protected by roll cages when it breaks and it will... MAS im pretty sure makes speedways axles for em too ... Don if they are still rooming then .... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dave