The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: J Man on September 12, 2007, 08:39:48 AM
I recently had the concrete poured in my building that I am going to use as a shop. It is 30x60. I now need to get the power run to it and start insulating it. I had a quote for the spray in foam but I do not have the $10k laying around to fo that. I have been thinking if using that lizard skin stuff to spra on the walls for a moisture barrier than using the fiberglass rolls. I plan to use OSB for my walls.
As far as shop lights I want to run some round lights that will work in cold weather, anyone have any suggestions? I will not be able to get heat in the building till next year.
Was this one of those "There's a house with the garage?" deals? :lol:
You really don't need a vapor barrier on the outside of the insulation, believe it or not, most vapor will be coming from the inside, particularly because metal siding is vapor proof. So install your insulation, and use Visqueen as a vapor barrier on the inside before sheeting it with OSB.
Why OSB instead of drywall? Wall board is less expensive. I assume you're thinking of this because of the possibilty of putting a hole in the wallboard. When I did mine I used OSB on the bottom 4 ft and wallboard the rest of the way.
Do a search for "Supertherm". I was watching Bob Villa over the weekend and they were spraying this on the outside of a home made from discarded steel shipping containers. It appears to be the same thing as Lizard Skin, ceramic microspheres suspended in a urethane, only white. R19 in the thickness of a credit card and waterproof. I didn't dig long enough to find a price...probably only $30 bucks a gallon instead of $180 for two!!! :lol: I will think about using on my car when I get to that point.
is OSB code legal?
That is going to be a nice work space someday.
I recently finished off the inside walls of a friend's pole building with plywood nailed directly to the purlins. Every sheet that abutted a pole had to be scribed and cut to fit. Based on that experience, I recommend you build a standard stub wall between the posts, insulste with bats, and finish off with drywall.
To meet code, OSB must be covered with a noncombustable material like drywall or sheet metal.
I don't think your widely spaced roof trusses will support a drywall ceiling. I'd consider using white painted barn metal. It has good span characteristics, does not weigh very much, and will reflect light better than anything I know of, including white painted drywall. Even so, you are going to need some additional framing up top.
There are a lot of good shop ideas here: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/
Phat rat
It was one of those, there is a house, chicken coupe, pole building and metal sided barn with the old barn. The 30x60 is the smallest of the 3 big buildings. There is an old barn that was mwtal sided some time ago, it will be used for a garage and storage. There is an old barn built in the 1880's as well. It is HUGE but needs a lot of work. I also have a chicken coupe that is about the size of a 3 car garage. It needs a lot of work as well. Yea there is a house there as well. I will see what pictures I have of the other buildings.
As far as the OSB, although it is more expensive it will be stronger. I want to hang things on the wall the keep them off the floor. It will give the the chance to put heavier thing on shelves.
Enjenjo
Thanks for the info. I have seen how they wrap the outside of a house before putting the siding on so I figured the moisture would be coming from the outside in. That will avtually save me some money then. What is better, the fiberglass or the foam board? I think the Johns Manville plant here in town sells the stuff that they can't sell in the stores.
Tomslik
They don't inspect things around here unless it is new constructione. The building has been there since the '60's so they will not ne too concerned with what I am doing to it.
Bib Overalls
I have not really put any thought into the ceiling yet. I will prob. wait till next year to deal with that.
Boy the perfect place to store all kinds of things. How many acres with it? I know your figuring on hanging things, but what about a mezzanine down one wall with shelves and cabinets above and below?
Quote from: "phat rat"Boy the perfect place to store all kinds of things. How many acres with it? I know your figuring on hanging things, but what about a mezzanine down one wall with shelves and cabinets above and below?
I was thinking of that at first, then I realized that with all the other space in the other buildings that it really wasn't needed. As far as land, there is just under 3 acres. We are totaly surrounded by corn.
Quote from: "J Man"Quote from: "phat rat"Boy the perfect place to store all kinds of things. How many acres with it? I know your figuring on hanging things, but what about a mezzanine down one wall with shelves and cabinets above and below?
I was thinking of that at first, then I realized that with all the other space in the other buildings that it really wasn't needed. As far as land, there is just under 3 acres. We are totaly surrounded by corn.
picture me ENVIOUS i'd love to have that kind of space. is the corn yours? i'll also second Bib_Overalls recommendation for the garage journal.
later jim
i was thinking more in the way of, will my insurance cover me with OSB.....
i had my 30x40 sprayed with foam and it has never been below 45 in three yras inside without heat.. in oklahoma of course but it has been 0 to 30 degrees some times. will not let water freeze on the floor in a dish all winter. i sprayed it white with barn paint and it is the ceiling . kinda looks like clouds haha..
I am building a 30X60 shop as well, ,,,,,,, :lol: Stud your walls and insulate conventionally with 6ml vapour barrier would be best. OR you could get insulation kits from metal building dealers,, OSB is an engineered product so it is good for what you want no probs. Some guys put blocking on edge in the walls horizontally about 5' level with a 2x6 or 8 then screw on dry wall,,, the wide blocking is to nail to when you want to hang things,,,,, may be try flourecent lights along the walls AND over head,, get cold weather balasts in them though. Also try to get some sort of ventilation in your attic area so your roof won't sweat and rain every time you want to work inside it. Vapour barrier under you slab would also stop alot of moisture. You could also strap your roof trusses with 2x4 and screw a ceilng on easily WITH vapour barrier but ventilate that attic area.
Good luck,,,,,,,,, looks like a great building to me. :roll:
Right now due to money issues and time I am going to only do the lower 8 ft and in the spring or after the house in PA sells I will finish it. I will probibly get an electric furnace. There is a place in Defiance that has good deals on them. I plan to get into solar annd wind power later down the line so I will reduce my dependancy on the electric company. For lighting I am looking at the round style lights like what they use at Lowes to hang from the ceiling. I figure they will produce a lot of light and the bulbs will be easier to change then a long tube. More of a safety issue for me. Then I can add the regular shop lights as needed around the building as needed. I have 2 sets of the sliding barn doors. I still need to seal up one set to keep air out. They will still be there incase I ever decide to add on, they will be the opening to the other building. The other set I am going to look iinto getting a roll up door that will hopefully be more air tight and secure.
I'm with some of the others, put up stud wall 2 foot on center and you could use 2 X 4's since they are none load bearing and bring them out to where you can put in 6 inch bats and then the vapor barrier on the inside side like was suggested.
The inside air since it is hotter can carry more water vapor in the air. When that air hits the outside wall or somewhere inside the insulation where it becomes cooler then it can no longer carry the vapor and it condenses out and makes your insulation wet and ruins it. The vapor barrier on the inside keeps the hotter moister air from penetrating into the insulation.
Also up above is where all the heat is going to go and unless you take care of that you will never keep it warm no matter how thick the insulation is in the walls. When I finished my house it was about a month before I could blow the insulation in above the ceiling. The temp in the house would drop from 70 to 50 overnight with no heat and that was early winter and with 6 inches in the walls and the sheetrock ceiling in place. Once it had insulation (12 inches of blow-in) the temps would drop from 70 to about 62-64 overnight with no heat in the dead of winter when the outside was getting into the single digits.
I'm not criticizing your building or others, but the main thing I have against most steel buildings is that although they are cheaper to begin with they are very hard to insulate cheaply. You still almost have to make a whole new wall and in some cases ceiling joists also if you want to insulate. Make a "stick" shop and once the walls and trusses are up you are all set for different insulation and wall/ceiling covering options. For unheated storage of equipment and such a steel type building can't be beat.
c ya,
Sum
Quote from: "1FATGMC"I'm with some of the others, put up stud wall 2 foot on center and you could use 2 X 4's since they are none load bearing and bring them out to where you can put in 6 inch bats and then the vapor barrier on the inside side like was suggested.
Thats what I plan to do. My walls are 5.5" deep and the bats I found at the local places are 6.5" thick. so there will be a little more than there is room for. It is R19. The 6 mil plastic is $75 for a 10x100 ft roll. doing this will be good ehough to get me through winter. And then when I sell the other house or in the spring or as extra money allows I will finish the rest. I will probibly not heat it this winter. My last building did not have heat so I will just freeze my but off like I did there for this winter.
Quote from: "1FATGMC"I'm not criticizing your building or others, but the main thing I have against most steel buildings is that although they are cheaper to begin with they are very hard to insulate cheaply. You still almost have to make a whole new wall and in some cases ceiling joists also if you want to insulate. Make a "stick" shop and once the walls and trusses are up you are all set for different insulation and wall/ceiling covering options. For unheated storage of equipment and such a steel type building can't be beat
As far as the structure of the building I did nit have too much of a choice there. I just bought the house this year and the building was built before I was born. Buying the property I di was more cost effective then trying to do everything new.
Ill throw in my nickle.. I went to a place near the ohio michigan border that sells 1 inch 4x8 foam sheets pretty cheap. This has been like 10 years ago but they are still there.. I dunno what the r factor is on them but i did the whole garage /pole barn with em including the overhead door and its only 20x24 but it heats really well.. In my old 24x32 barn i used the celotex 1 inch foam sheets and i poured the blow in type insulation on top of that in the celing.. It heated well too. I did do all but one and 1/2 of my walls with osb over the foam.. I thought drywall was only required if the garage was attached to the house and only on the house wall for fire protection :?: :?:
If I sell the roadster after I get it done im planning eithe an addition on my garage or even a seprate structure out back like 24x32x12.. Id be with out a car but I can sure do enuff work in a building like that to fund another one..
dave
I saw an ad the other day for a place that makes foam panels. I have not had the chance to look them up yet. I want to see what the R value is. I coud ise the 2" panel with the 3.5" roll insulation. Then I would put the 6 mil plastic and the OSB on top of that.
http://www.waynesbuildingsupply.com/index.html
this is threir we bite. Is it the dame place that you were talking about?
Also if you were to take something with an R value of 8 and another product with a value if 12, does that really make it a R20? does piggy backing different materials work like that?
QuoteI went to a place near the ohio michigan border that sells 1 inch 4x8 foam sheets pretty cheap. This has been like 10 years ago but they are still there.
Could it have been H and H Insulation on M52 just south of Adrian?
Quote from: "J Man"........................
Thats what I plan to do. My walls are 5.5" deep and the bats I found at the local places are 6.5" thick. so there will be a little more than there is room for. It is R19. The 6 mil plastic is $75 for a 10x100 ft roll. doing this will be good enough to get me through winter. ......................
A 2 X 6 stud if you used them for a stick wall is only 5 1/2 inches wide anyway, so the glass you are looking at would work fine. Do like you are talking about with the stud wall, fiberglass, and then the plastic and you would be fine until you covered the wall with sheet rock or whatever.
Like I said since they are non-structural just use 2 X 4's and space the wall out from the existing exterior wall how ever far you want to.
c ya,
Sum
Quote from: "1FATGMC"
Like I said since they are non-structural just use 2 X 4's and space the wall out from the existing exterior wall how ever far you want to.
c ya,
Sum
an added bonus, if you did it like that is you'd pick up some noise supression since there would be no direct path for the vibrations to follow.
later jim
Quote from: "J Man"this is threir we bite. Is it the dame place that you were talking about?
Boy does my typing suck!!!!
My shop has 1" thick "Ag Board" insulation. This material is very light and has a white painted aluminum foil side that is very effective at reflecting light. But it is not very strong and can not take much abuse. OK exposed as a ceiling. But it really needs to be protected (covered) when used on walls. Something I did not do at the time I put the building up, and way too difficult now because the place is full of junk!
Most of the talk here has been about walls. But heat rises. And simply insulating the walls will not do much with respect to keeping heat in the structure. Ya need to do ceilings and walls at the same time to get an effective result.
Quote from: "enjenjo"QuoteI went to a place near the ohio michigan border that sells 1 inch 4x8 foam sheets pretty cheap. This has been like 10 years ago but they are still there.
Could it have been H and H Insulation on M52 just south of Adrian?
Im sure that was it Frank.. They are the only one in Adrian.. I remember his daughter helped us load the stuff and she was Hot :lol: :lol:
Dave
Quote from: "Bib_Overalls"Most of the talk here has been about walls. But heat rises. And simply insulating the walls will not do much with respect to keeping heat in the structure. Ya need to do ceilings and walls at the same time to get an effective result.
Yep, that is what I said in my first post. If you don't do the ceiling just forget it. And that doesn't mean you put in a ceiling, it has to be insulated better than the walls. My shop is 1600 sq. ft with a solar green house attached and I had to supply heat to it less than 10 days last winter other than the solar to keep it above 60 and it was not a warm winter here with most nights in the low teens or high single digits,
You can read how I built it and the house here:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/newhouse/house-index.html
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/newhouse/fin-siding-10.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/newhouse/fin-siding-3.jpg)
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/newhouse/Shop-1.jpg)
c ya,
Sum
cool post, your both members of team smart correct :lol:
Jason, looks like you found the perfect place, from what you told me you were looking for!!
I can see it full in no time lol, surprised your wife wasn't scared at that thought, :P
Debb
Quote from: "KustomLincolnLady"cool post, your both members of team smart correct :lol:
Debb
Don't be a hater :lol: :lol: :lol:
Vance
Quote from: "KustomLincolnLady"cool post, your both members of team smart correct :lol:
Jason, looks like you found the perfect place, from what you told me you were looking for!!
I can see it full in no time lol, surprised your wife wasn't scared at that thought, :P
Debb
With that big barn I actually have too much room but I am sure I will fill it up one day. :) As far as my wife, she just wants me to get something done.
As far as shop lights I want to run some round lights that will work in cold weather, anyone have any suggestions? I will not be able to get heat in the building till next year.[/quote]
Check with your local electrical supply house. They make a highbay and lowbay fixture for industrial applications depending on the height of your ceiling. I would recommend metal halide low bay fixtures. You can get them in different wattages and with multi-tap ballasts for different voltages. 3 or 4 400 watt lowbays will light it up in there. Metal halide produces a bright white light. While high pressure sodium has an orange/yellow effect. (Avoid HPS)
These fixtures take awhile to come up to full power so you might want a few regular incandescents around the entrance/exits.
Also if you go to leave the building and shut the lowbay fixtures off they will take 10 to 20 minutes to come back on.
Some are equipped with what is called a quartz restrike and they will come on faster. So you could put one near the door for general lighting.
Again check with the supply house and ask the lighting guy to help.
They should have some other options for ya.
Quote from: "KustomLincolnLady"cool post, your both members of team smart correct :lol:
Debb
Debb im confused on this.. Have you seen this guys daughter.. :?: Do you think she is hot :?:
Dave :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Quote from: "Woody2B"Do a search for "Supertherm". I was watching Bob Villa over the weekend and they were spraying this on the outside of a home made from discarded steel shipping containers. It appears to be the same thing as Lizard Skin, ceramic microspheres suspended in a urethane, only white. R19 in the thickness of a credit card and waterproof. I didn't dig long enough to find a price...probably only $30 bucks a gallon instead of $180 for two!!! :lol: I will think about using on my car when I get to that point.
I looked around some on-line but could not find a site with pricing.
Do you know of sources (preferably) on the right hand side of the US?
Thanks
Quote from: "27oakland"As far as shop lights I want to run some round lights that will work in cold weather, anyone have any suggestions? I will not be able to get heat in the building till next year.
Check with your local electrical supply house. They make a highbay and lowbay fixture for industrial applications depending on the height of your ceiling. I would recommend metal halide low bay fixtures. You can get them in different wattages and with multi-tap ballasts for different voltages. 3 or 4 400 watt lowbays will light it up in there. Metal halide produces a bright white light. While high pressure sodium has an orange/yellow effect. (Avoid HPS)
These fixtures take awhile to come up to full power so you might want a few regular incandescents around the entrance/exits.
Also if you go to leave the building and shut the lowbay fixtures off they will take 10 to 20 minutes to come back on.
Some are equipped with what is called a quartz restrike and they will come on faster. So you could put one near the door for general lighting.
Again check with the supply house and ask the lighting guy to help.
They should have some other options for ya.[/quote]
I went to Lowes and they wer supposed to check on some lights for me but a week later no call from them. Ihave had the same thoing happen there with other things I was looking for. I will have to see if there are any building supply places in Toledo or Ft. Wayne.
I went to Lowes and they wer supposed to check on some lights for me but a week later no call from them. Ihave had the same thoing happen there with other things I was looking for. I will have to see if there are any building supply places in Toledo or Ft. Wayne.[/quote]
The lights you are looking for are more commercial/industrial than what the home cheapo or other building supply places may stock.
You may have to go to an electrical supply house. I know some of the supply houses in the Kalamazoo area have locations in Fort Wayne. Take a look at Kedall, Allphase, Graybar, or possibly Grainger.
Good luck with your search.
Thanks for the heads up. Once I am back to work I will have to look them up and get some.