The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: Crosley.In.AZ on November 25, 2006, 12:45:56 AM
Any person used / bought the tool for working with tubes for chassis & roll bars?
The tool forms into the shape of the needed tube notch as on a roll cage.
Looks like little metal rods that slide inside a holder ring?
is that clear as mud? LOL
EDIT: Tubing notchers??
I see the hole saw type , bushings or needle bearings on the shaft.
I see the punch type notchers. I see tools for lathe use, which seem like a PITA to use
About 125 bucks to many thousands of $$
I am not building a lot of tube chassis stuff........ sounds like the hole saw type would work for me??
:?
Yes, I've used one. they work well, not perfect in some cases, but close enough to dress with a sander.
Quote from: "Crosley"Any person used / bought the tool for working with tubes for chassis & roll bars?
The tool forms into the shape of the needed tube notch as on a roll cage.
Looks like little metal rods that slide inside a holder ring?
is that clear as mud? LOL
Sounds like you're looking for a contour guage that is rolled up to fit around a tube or pipe.
I see them advertised all the time in oval-track publications.
Here's a link to the Longacre site where one example is available.
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/productindex.asp
Scroll down about three-quarters of the way to "Accessories - Pipemaster Kits" and "Accessories - Pipemaster Tools".
It will be right after all the rivet stuff.
There you will see four and nine-piece kits along with individual tools. Unfortunately, you need a specific tool for each tubing size.
The Longacre stuff tends to be a bit pricey, but I have some Longacre tools such as their tire stagger guage and bump-steer guage, and I have worked with many of the other Longacre tools owned by various race teams.
I, personally, like the stuff.
If I were to buy such a tool, I would not hesitate to spend the money for Longacre.
There are some others who have similar tools at not-much-lower prices, (it's still a fairly new offering and a novelty), but I cannot seem to find them in a quick scan of recent oval-track magazines.
You might try a Google for "tubing contour guage" or something like that.
Having said all that, I find that when there is a fit that defies my electronic protractor and rotary table on my milling machine - such as a multi-tube junction - I simply tape a piece of manila folder around a scrap piece of tubing - allowing it to stick out a bit, attach a magnetic protractor like the $10 ones you find at Sears and Home Depot, hold it at the angle it needs to be, and cut away with scissors until it is an acceptable fit.
I then slide the manila folder tube off the scrap, and onto the good piece, trace it, then cut to the line.
B.P.
OK..... thanks.
With the correct tool name I did a Google search.
does not seem to be much movement in the tool pricing.
Summit is a nickel cheaper than most
You asked if I had used one, yes I did, but I normally do it the same way as Bob. Then I cut to the line with a chop saw.
My buddy Larry builds pulling tractor cages. He uses a long fluted end mill in a milling machine. They hold the tubing in a special vise at just the right angle and bring the mill into it from the side. The milling cutters are very expensive but it does an incredible job and the pieces are as nearly a perfect fit as can be. Of course they follow up with a tig weld and so no one really every sees the nice job that they do.
John
Quote from: "WZ JUNK"My buddy Larry builds pulling tractor cages. He uses a long fluted end mill in a milling machine. They hold the tubing in a special vise at just the right angle and bring the mill into it from the side. The milling cutters are very expensive but it does an incredible job and the pieces are as nearly a perfect fit as can be. Of course they follow up with a tig weld and so no one really every sees the nice job that they do.
John
That's the way I do it, too.
You may not see the fit after it is welded, but, believe me, the welder appreciates the fit.
I use a rotary table, with a vise mounted on it.
I just did a single hoop and some stretch bars for a friend who is building a nostalgia flathead dragster.
He gave me the bottom width and height of the hoop, and I was able to bend that to fit.
Then he came back and gave me the angle for the rear stretch bars. I set the rotary table mounted on my millimg machine table to that angle, clamped the tubing, and ran the milling machine table across into the 1-3/4" roughing mill.
A couple of minutes later, he had two fishmouthed pieces.
He called me that afternoon and said it all fit perfectly.
I've also seen guys who had lathes set up with a vise set on the cross slide to set the angle and the mill mounted in the three-jaw-chuck.
One guy was even using the bottom end from a flathead connecting rod to hold the tubing.
B.P.
Quote from: "Crosley"OK..... thanks.
With the correct tool name I did a Google search.
does not seem to be much movement in the tool pricing.
Summit is a nickel cheaper than most
Tony:
I believe that Pipemaster is the *brand name* - not the generic term - of one particular tool of this kind.
I have seen others available for several dollars less, but I am not able to put my finger on them at the moment.
I would Google "tube notch* ", "tube contour", "tube guage", "metalworking tools", etc.
Not sure if US Tool, Brown Aviation, Cleaveland Aircraft Tools, Dagger Tools, and others of that ilk might also have them.
With a garage the size of yours I would buy a good floor mounted drill press with a good table on it that can be put at angles. With a decentdrill press you can do it with holesaws and not have to buy on special tool that only has one good use. Some things to watch. My drillpress has a drill chuck that that is mounted on a Jacobs taper shaft and sometimes a force sideways on the chuck will cause it drop out ( doesnt work a * with milling tools) but I try to overlook those shortcomming as I bought it Thirty years ago for $150.00 at a discount store. Also instead of trying to make a cut clear through you can figure where the cut needs to be and drill your center hole first for the radius of the hole saw on both sides of the tube. If you do a little bit of drawing you can even drill holes to set a kingpin boss in a tube straight front axel so that your spindles will be at the proper inclination. And while we're talking about this, a decent tube cutter with a wheel will score a nice line around the surface of a round tube. For jobs requiring less precission I usually use radiator hose clamps. The best tool for making a straight line the length of a tube is a piece of angleiron. I have friends that run a machine shop and build re-designed driveshafts all the time (and they never come back because they were made wrong) and they use angle iron to make sure the "U" joints are not out-of-time. So much of me trying to impress myself into thinking I know something. GPster
I learned this method from Dewayne Korn, who owned H&L Metals on Signal Hill, CA and probably bent welded together more tubing than all of us combined! He did all of his "fish mouthing" with a torch. I have done several roll cages for stock cars and some sports cars and can tell you it works. You need to be doing it on heavy wall tubing. Set your tube to be cut on to the tube that it is going to be welded to, measure distance from the end of the tube to the mating tube (if you set one tube against another at an angle one end of the diameter obviously does not come close to the mating tube, this is the distance that you measure.) Then turn the tube over and mark that distance on the back side with a piece of chalk, now take your cutting torch and angle it so that the cutting flame is on the angle from the chalk mark to the end of the tube on the opposite side or just a little short of this poing so that the cut will saddle the tube. Start the cut in the middle of the tube, keep the torch angled and cut first one side then the other. Move the torch in a straight line perpenducular to the center line of the tube, again first cut one side then the other. With a little work you will be supprised at the nice finish of the cut and how close it is to a good fit. it will only take a little tuning up on the belt or disc sander to make a perfect fit. Only do this with mild steel as it can have a bad affect on 4130.
Remember on any type of tube end finishing, milling cutter, hole saw etc that the edge of the cut must be ground back so that the weld is not to the knife edge that is made by the cutter. Sure it makes a real pretty weld but the full strenght of the tubing is not used. If you are doing 1/8 wall tubing then you want to have at least a 1/8 to 3/16 weld fillet for strength.
Rex
Joe Amateur checkin' in.
If you only have to do a few fishmouths, use the fitting templates - or a close approximation thereof - to mark a line/pattern on the tubing.
Cut the tubing close to finished size on a chopsaw or bandsaw.
Take into account the angle if any.
Use your bench grinder to grind the fishmouth in.
If you're patient you can make a pretty accurate fit although it will take some time compared to using a dedicated tool.
I did a few of these when I built a new X style crossmember out of 1 1/2" x .120 wall DOM tubing for my 32's frame.
I tacked it with a crude-o TIG (high frequency adapter etc.) and my little brothers professional welder friend did the final welding with a real TIG.
The fit was close and as mentioned, the edges ground back a bit for a little more 'grab' of the weld bead.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I tried one of the Harbor Freight angle cutter gizmo's . . . not worth a darn.
We even went so far as to machine up several 'kits' so my amateur welder friend could make some.
The fit et al was a lot closer than the HF stuff, but they were still a pain to use.
C9....... thanks for the info.
So the $40.00 hole saw type tube angle cutter from HF is not worth the effort?
I have this chassis tube kit I bought from Jegs 1 year ago..... plenty of cut and formed ( bent) tubes that I need to fish mouth / fit together and weld.
I will be MIG welding this kit since I sold my old Linde TIG machine .
Why would you sell a TIG? and then use a "mud gun" i.e. MIG ??? Good for making trailers and welding "angle iron" TIG is for makine hot rods and race cars.
Rex
It's hard not to use a TIG since a MIG is so much faster.
Don't the stock car troops use a MIG for a lot of their chassis stuff?
Maybe even NASCAR?
For what it's worth I do drag cars . I purchased a hole jigger or something like that years ago and although it does a good job it is a pain. You have to use oil to get any life from the hole saws and it vibrates and is very noisy.
I use a small air powered body saw and finish with a die grinder and it usual is faster and a lot cleaner. As far as tubes missalighing sometimes you can put another bend in the tube and get it to butt up square or closer anyway.
Quote from: "Crosley"C9....... thanks for the info.
So the $40.00 hole saw type tube angle cutter from HF is not worth the effort?
I have this chassis tube kit I bought from Jegs 1 year ago..... plenty of cut and formed ( bent) tubes that I need to fish mouth / fit together and weld.
I will be MIG welding this kit since I sold my old Linde TIG machine .
I got the hf hole say tyr and it works great up to about 40* angles with good hole saw blades it worked perfect for us. 1.5 x .120 tube. There maybe better ones but I was stisfied for the last job we did for my boys front bumper grille.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/ke6bnl/70%20chevy%204x4/stuff012.jpg)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pipemaster-Pro-Kit-w-case-9-sizes-3-4-to-1-3-4_W0QQitemZ130055032609QQihZ003QQcategoryZ107061QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Quote from: "Rex Schimmer"Why would you sell a TIG? and then use a "mud gun" i.e. MIG ??? Good for making trailers and welding "angle iron" TIG is for makine hot rods and race cars.
Rex
My experience with a TIG is limited. I bought the old machine to learn and I never did.
mayb a new machine will be in my future?
Quote from: "Crosley"My experience with a TIG is limited. I bought the old machine to learn and I never did.
maybe a new machine will be in my future?
Tony that has been my feeling, but the desire to be able to weld aluminum and stainless has me looking.
If I can find the money I've narrowed it down to either the Lincoln Precision 225 (this just replaced their 185 amp model )or the Miller Syncrowave 200. Both are in the $1700 to $1900 range delivered plus the bottle $200-$300 (ouch).
I don't know much about the Tigs, but a salesman says that the pulse circuit in these could really help us guys that don't weld much with getting better welds. He said the Miller was more adjustable as to the current at the top and bottom of the pulse, but harder to use by someone who doesn't weld all the time. The Lincoln has adjustability, but also and "auto" mode where the machine will help adjust the pulse and get us welding faster especially with aluminum.
The down side to these two is that it looks like 1/8 to 3/16 is the max. realistic working thickness. They have air cooled torches which he says isn't all that bad for us since we aren't doing production, but can be converted to water cooled.
Here is a link to a comparison and a couple other links about them:
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e3372.pdf
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/syncrowave_200/
I just ordered a plasma cutter from these guys and I'll see if they are good doing business with:
http://www.weldersource.com/litigwe.html
The plasma cutter I just ordered (looks like they make the Miller Spectrum 375, but the consumable won't interchange. A guy that sells both says the Hpertherm's consumables don't get contaminated as easily, but Miller wanted to sell the consumables so had Hypertherm make them so they wouldn't interchange):
http://www.weldersource.com/070075.html
I would like to weld intercooler ends, tanks and such for my truck and the lakester along with hopefully the headers, so if the tigs above won't work for that I'll have to pass as I can't move up to the $3000+ ones. Also the ones above need a 50 amp circuit and I'm wired for that now, but not for larger.
If anyone has any experience with either of the above tigs I would like to hear it or about one that might do what I need.
c ya,
Sum
I bought a plasma cutter from Indiana oxygen IIRC...... After a few minutes at a setting of 24 amps on the cutter my 20 amp 110 volt circuit would blow.
So I took my 220 volt extension cord.... Added on a 110 volt outlet to it. Now I feed off a 50 amp circuit for the plasma cutter
one of the first items i would build could be a water tank for a torch with water cooling.
I used a plastic 5 gal bucket and water fountain pump on my last TIG machine. Crude , but it worked
Or buy a cooling system off ebay .......
I try to keep my cash spent for new tools under 5k a year
8)
Quote from: "Crosley"
Or buy a cooling system off ebay .......
8)
yup that's where i bought mine, i got mine for $235, the guy's handle was stinkywilly. it took some adapting but nothing a guy building a salt racer couldn't handle.
another advantage to water cooled is the torch head is smaller, useful for tight access. next time you come down this way i'll let you give my machine a whirl.
later jim
Quote from: "river1"...another advantage to water cooled is the torch head is smaller, useful for tight access. next time you come down this way i'll let you give my machine a whirl.
later jim
I've been warned about the problem of getting into tight places with the torch head, so that is good info.
Tony I'll give you $20.00 for your plastic water bucket, fountain pump set-up 8) .
Don't know when I'll be down Jim, I miss seeing you guys, but not the traffic down there :wink: .
c ya,
Sum
Quote from: "Rex Schimmer"Why would you sell a TIG? and then use a "mud gun" i.e. MIG ??? Good for making trailers and welding "angle iron" TIG is for makine hot rods and race cars.
Rex
Where the h*** did you ever get this idea? Tigs have one advantage.......the welds can be a little nicer looking. but in the hands of someone who knows how to weld, a mig can produce strong, good looking welds. Even the old arc welders used by someone who knows their stuff can be a great way to join two metals together.
Every chassis we build is migged and I would defy anyone to find a better weld by any means. This is what happens when new stuff comes out, suddenly the things that have been working for years are no good.
I had my one roadster frame built by a guy who teaches welding, and I wanted him to mig it, because that was the buzzword at the time. He laughed, and did it with an arc welder, and the welds look like they were done on a welding machine.
It is a real slap in the face to all the guys who use a mig to make a comment like that.
Don
the roll cage in my 69 Camaro ( built years ago) was stick welded. The guy was dang good is why I had him do it with my Miller buzz box I bought in 1975.
That is exactly my point. All of these are acceptable means of joining two pieces of steel, and it really comes down to the skill level of the welder.
Here is a picture of our "mud gun" mig welded '29 frame.
Don
Quote from: "Crosley"the roll cage in my 69 Camaro ( built years ago) was stick welded. The guy was dang good is why I had him do it with my Miller buzz box I bought in 1975.
I did all the frame work on 1FATGMC with a used $75.00 buzz box. I didn't trust the small 110 Miller I had at the time even though it was rated to do 1/8 inch.
Now that welder just sits in the corner with the 220 Miller Mig I have now. Even if I was able to get a tig I'll bet 90% of my welding would still be with the mig. I love it.
I know Rex and I'm sure the comment was not meant to put anyone down that uses a mig or a stick welder.
c ya,
Sum
Quote from: "Crosley"C9....... thanks for the info.
So the $40.00 hole saw type tube angle cutter from HF is not worth the effort?
I have this chassis tube kit I bought from Jegs 1 year ago..... plenty of cut and formed ( bent) tubes that I need to fish mouth / fit together and weld.
I will be MIG welding this kit since I sold my old Linde TIG machine .
crosley, We have used a harbour freight nother with carbide tipped hole saws 6.00 ea for about 6 years now and we have done many mild steel cages nhra certified to 7.50 with it. it has never failed us ...i am gooing to bu another just because i cant belive it still works as much as we have used it... Sumner saw it when i did his lakester bars...
Sum,
I know what you mean, I have had a Miller 35 for better than 20 years now and used the daylights out of it. I bought a Lincoln 175 TIG when I sold the coupe (10 years ago) and probably have not run it for 15 minutes. Keep wanting to play with it, but when push comes to shove out comes the Miller. I did buy a small Hobart for the tin work, and I sure do like it. I mounted it on top of the Miller so both are handy and share the same tank. I have put off using the TIG for so long the Argon has all seeped out of the tank and I need to get a refill.
Doug
I certainly agree that if you are a very experenced welder then it probably doesn't matter what kind of welder that you use. I have worked in a number of places where we were welding very heavy material, anything under 1/2 inch was considered sheet metal!, and the welders of choice were, sub arc, stick and mig becasue you could lay down lots of metal in a short time, and the guys that did the welding were extremely good and their welds all looked perfect, but for everything that is done on a hot rod I think that a god TIG is the weapon of choice, certainly my choice. Beautiful welds, great strength, the ability to weld aluminum, everdur rod for doing very thin sheet metal and the ability to do single pass 1/4 to 5/16 fillets in one pass so that covers making trailers too.
I think that people use MIG instead of TIG because it is 1. Easier, 2. Cheaper, 3. Faster. All of which I agree with but no way can you compare the control of TIG when butt welding some 20 ga body panels or making aluminum tanks or radiators. I bought my old AIRCO 460 amp unit from North American Aircraft Surplus Sales back in 1983 and it has a few excentricities but it does everything I want and makes beautiful welds.
Still a TIG guy!
Rex
I certainly agree that if you are a very experenced welder then it probably doesn't matter what kind of welder that you use. I have worked in a number of places where we were welding very heavy material, anything under 1/2 inch was considered sheet metal!, and the welders of choice were, sub arc, stick and mig becasue you could lay down lots of metal in a short time, and the guys that did the welding were extremely good and their welds all looked perfect, but for everything that is done on a hot rod I think that a god TIG is the weapon of choice, certainly my choice. Beautiful welds, great strength, the ability to weld aluminum, everdur rod for doing very thin sheet metal and the ability to do single pass 1/4 to 5/16 fillets in one pass so that covers making trailers too.
I think that people use MIG instead of TIG because it is 1. Easier, 2. Cheaper, 3. Faster. All of which I agree with but no way can you compare the control of TIG when butt welding some 20 ga body panels or making aluminum tanks or radiators. I bought my old AIRCO 460 amp unit from North American Aircraft Surplus Sales back in 1983 and it has a few excentricities but it does everything I want and makes beautiful welds.
Still a TIG guy!
Rex
I think you and I agree that while Tig is a great way to weld, it is not the ONLY way to weld. I don't do aluminum, so that is not a factor. We also have a good sized Miller Mig, so good penetration is not an issue, either. When we have gone back and taken something apart, we found the welds were deep and very strong.
What happens sometimes is that these new toys come out and suddenly all the stuff we had been using were horrible, and not to be even used anymore. Perfect example is a plasma cutter. We wanted one for years, and finally bought one. Now it sits in the corner and gathers dust, because we found out it really doesn't do any more than the old ways we were cutting metal.
You like your tig, and that is fine. I just don't think it is fair to make a comment that anyone using another method is somehow making a mistake.
Don
Well, I still use all three, plus oxyacetelene. Each one excells at different jobs.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Well, I still use all three, plus oxyacetelene. Each one excells at different jobs.
yup tho i haven't got an oxyaceteline set up yet. i borrow when i need an oxy.
Quote from: "Rex Schimmer"
Still a TIG guy!
Rex
you not a TIG guy your a
(http://euclid.butler.edu/~sorenson/mazes/tigger.gif)
later jim
I have the Oxy too, my dad bought it when he bought a VW dealership in Helena in 1962. Victor 100 and still available.
Doug
My Son thought my oxy setup was old technololgy, never to be used. But then we started heating and bending stuff, like steering arms, and he realized what you are saying. Each one has it's place and purpose.
Don
bought my first oxy outfit when I was 18....... it helped me install the 450cc Honda engine into my Isetta I drove around my senior year of high school.
There were some German guys that fitted aluminum Cobra bodies to frames for a guy I knew years ago...... these guys welded the aluminum with an oxy setup. Very impressive to watch them.
8)
Seems like NHRA requires certain types of welds on the cages in the faster cars ??
:?
Quote from: "Rex Schimmer"...................... I bought my old AIRCO 460 amp unit from North American Aircraft Surplus Sales back in 1983 and it has a few excentricities but it does everything I want and makes beautiful welds.
Still a TIG guy!
Rex
Rex what amperage circuit do you run that on in order to weld 1/4-5/16 aluminum????
c ya,
Sum
Quote from: "Crosley"bought my first oxy outfit when I was 18....... it helped me install the 450cc Honda engine into my Isetta I drove around my senior year of high school.
There were some German guys that fitted aluminum Cobra bodies to frames for a guy I knew years ago...... these guys welded the aluminum with an oxy setup. Very impressive to watch them.
8)
Seems like NHRA requires certain types of welds on the cages in the faster cars ??
:?
seems to me it's mig or tig for mild steel and tig only for moly
Sum,
I don't do a lot of thicker alum like 1/4 and 5/16 but if I did and wanted a really good weld I would certainly grind a nice bevel on both plates, probably the full thickness and then do the weld in 3 passes, plus when I was done on one side I woulld turn it over grind the welded area and put another pass on that side. Welding thick aluminum is difficult as the metal wants to disapate the heat so fast that you really need to put power to it. I really doubt that I could get a full penatration weld on a piece of 1/4 in a single pass, and even if it did fill the bevel there will still be a notch on the back of the weld that needs to be ground and welded. I worked at a place where we were welding one of the special 2000 series aluminum for rings for rocket cases and the cross section was around 1 inch thick by 8 inch long. We used pretty high amp settings, probably in the 300 area, preheated the base metal, used helium instead of argon(which make the weld hotter) and did it in DC instead of AC. The weld was pretty much a complete filler operation as the metal was preped by cutting a 7/8 inch deep J groove on each side and then filling the groove with filler in multi passes. I tell this story to let you know that sure you can take a piece of 1/4 plate and do a single pass over it and it will be welded together but the weld is probably only 1/16 th deep.
There is a real high tech method for doing alum plate these days and it is called "keyhole" welding. You don't even need to bevel the ends of the plate but you need one of the new welders that will do reverse polarity plasma welding. I have seen 3/4 plate butted together and then welded, full penatration, 100% weld in a single pass. Not what I usually do every day with my TIG.
Oxy/Acet welding. I too still have my original Victor Junior welder that I bought back in 1970. Built several great dirt bikes with it as oxy/acet is still recognized as one of the best ways to weld 4130 tubing, if you know the method. Also built a pile of 2 stroke expansion chambers and several aluminum tanks. It is still a fall back for me if I can't TIG it. But as I always say, "If you can gas weld you can TIG! Same method except TIG is easier!"
Rex