The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: moose on March 01, 2006, 10:35:25 PM
Thinking about an over-drive tranny in the coupe I am building. What are the advantages of using a 200R vs a 700R? Rear end will be either a 8in. or 9in fors . Motor will be a mild 327. Not looking to burn up the streets but do want a dependable long distance crusier. My other option is the tried and tru 350 tranny....
Thanks
Tim
Quote from: "moose"Thinking about an over-drive tranny in the coupe I am building. What are the advantages of using a 200R vs a 700R? Rear end will be either a 8in. or 9in fors . Motor will be a mild 327. Not looking to burn up the streets but do want a dependable long distance crusier. My other option is the tried and tru 350 tranny....
Thanks
Tim
What will be your tire diameter and rearend ratios?? Will the car ever be raced? Sounds like no??
c ya, Sum
Quote from: "1FATGMC"Quote from: "moose"Thinking about an over-drive tranny in the coupe I am building. What are the advantages of using a 200R vs a 700R? Rear end will be either a 8in. or 9in fors . Motor will be a mild 327. Not looking to burn up the streets but do want a dependable long distance crusier. My other option is the tried and tru 350 tranny....
Thanks
Tim
What will be your tire diameter and rearend ratios?? Will the car ever be raced? Sounds like no??
c ya, Sum
No plans to race it. As far as tire diameter, something to mostally fill the wheel well openning. Do not have a size picked out yet. I am still leaning toward a Kelsey style wire wheel but may go with steelies with small rings and caps... Rearend ratio will depend on if I go with an over drive or the turbo 350.
The 700 has a much deeper 1st gear (3.0?) vs about a 2.5 in the 200. Running 3.50 gears with the 700 is like having 4.11's to 4.20's using a 200 or 350 in first. That is nice with a heavier vehicle or if you are geared high in the rear end say less than a 3.23, but that is where the tires come into play. I run a 3.50 rear with 28 inch tires and a 700 and really like it in my truck (75mph at about 2400 rpm). You might be running a 30 inch tire or something like that though.
You should be fairly light, so either would probably be a good deal. The 700 is easier to find and probably cheaper. If you run something larger than a 28 inch tire I would recommend a rear gear of 3.50 to 3.73 with the 200 and at least a 3.23 with the 700.
The drag racers like the 200 for the smaller drop in rpms during the 1-2 shift. The other thing is that the 200 is the same length as a 350 and the 700 is longer. The 200 is also a little smaller all around which might matter to you and the 700 is longer by I'll guess 7-8 inches. If that works with the car length I'd use the 700 if you have neither now.
Don't gear the car too high as the fun of these transmissions is you can have good acceleration and low cruise rpms.
Either way don't use the 350. If you ever use a good overdrive on a street car I doubt you would ever go back.
c ya, Sum
Sum, I am often confused about the selection of rear end ratios. I propose using the T700 for my '37 project (Ford club coupe 350 running a mild 350 and 9"). From the calculators (and I have used several) on the internet I get ratios of 3.70 or 3.89 (mostly 3.89) with a rear tire size of 235/75/15 which I think from memory is about 29" tall. The revs at 60 mph were something like 1800rpm. I was thinking of using the 3.70 gears. From what you have written I get the feeling that I should reconsider my choice. Any comments??
Steve
Quote from: "sal37"Sum, I am often confused about the selection of rear end ratios. I propose using the T700 for my '37 project (Ford club coupe 350 running a mild 350 and 9"). From the calculators (and I have used several) on the internet I get ratios of 3.70 or 3.89 (mostly 3.89) with a rear tire size of 235/75/15 which I think from memory is about 29" tall. The revs at 60 mph were something like 1800rpm. I was thinking of using the 3.70 gears. From what you have written I get the feeling that I should reconsider my choice. Any comments??
Steve
I'm not Sum, but I have run a mild 350 with a 700R4, and a 2.79 gear succesfully in a 47 Ford. I think that would be about the limit. I would shoot for a 3.50 gear, a good all around compromise. Even a 3.25 will work good with this combo.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Quote from: "sal37"Sum, I am often confused about the selection of rear end ratios. I propose using the T700 for my '37 project (Ford club coupe 350 running a mild 350 and 9"). From the calculators (and I have used several) on the internet I get ratios of 3.70 or 3.89 (mostly 3.89) with a rear tire size of 235/75/15 which I think from memory is about 29" tall. The revs at 60 mph were something like 1800rpm. I was thinking of using the 3.70 gears. From what you have written I get the feeling that I should reconsider my choice. Any comments??
Steve
I'm not Sum, but I have run a mild 350 with a 700R4, and a 2.79 gear succesfully in a 47 Ford. I think that would be about the limit. I would shoot for a 3.50 gear, a good all around compromise. Even a 3.25 will work good with this combo.
Hey you are a lot smarter than Sum :D . Steve I agree with Frank's selections, but with the 29 inch tires I might like the 3.70's myself. If you want better acceleration go with those. If you are looking for better gas mileage move down to the 3.25's or 3.50's (what I have). I would not go lower than the 3.25's. The Buick I mentioned with the 200R4 and probably 2.73 rear gears doesn't even go into overdrive until about 65. If you are driving slower than 75 you get better mileage in 3rd. At 80 to 85 it really cruises and gets a little over 20 mpg with the 305 :D .
I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but both of the transmissions you are looking at use a TV cable and this IS NOT like the kick down cable on a 350 or 400. Be sure to set it up right on the carb or your new transmission will not last long. It seems a little complicated, but it isn't. I have info on my tech pages ( HERE (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/techinfo.html) ) that will help.
c ya, Sum
Sum
I have looked at your fantastic site but this TV cable stuff scares the s*#t out of me as I haven't had anything to do with autos before and have read some stories about fried tranmissions etc. I will have time to learn as it will be a little time off before I will get the trans rebuilt and installed. The ongoing house extensions have pretty much wiped out my car account but at least the quality of life on the domestic front has improved.
Steve
Quote from: "sal37"Sum
I have looked at your fantastic site but this TV cable stuff scares the s*#t out of me as I haven't had anything to do with autos before and have read some stories about fried tranmissions etc. I will have time to learn as it will be a little time off before I will get the trans rebuilt and installed. The ongoing house extensions have pretty much wiped out my car account but at least the quality of life on the domestic front has improved.
Steve
It isn't that bad. Get a protractor out and lay the angles and distances out on a card full scale. Cut the paper so you can hold it up to the bellcrank on the carb and see where you are at when you move the bellcrank from closed to WOT. Then modify the bellcrank to the right angles (I show how I modified mine). You can also get adapters now for a number of carbs that are all set up to give you the right geometry.
I'm well aware of what house building can do (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/newhouse/house-index.html) to you and the budget. Once it is done though it is nice.
Hope to be over there during the next couple years to go to your salt flats. I'll help you then 8) .
c ya, Sum
the 200-4r is the same basic size of the t-350. if the 200 is built correctly it will serve you well.
Use a lock up clutch converter .
use 3.70 or 3.73 gears , all will be fine.
18,000 mi on this 700R4 tranny behind a 425hp BBC crate motor and I don't baby it as you can see here. This isn't a burn-out this is the 1-2 shift
Show Off!!!
didn't mean too seem like a show-off. Just showing that the 700R's aren't necessarily weak trannies
Only kidding, I love the smoke. I just forget to put the smilies after the comment. I always forget that when I am sitting here laughing at what I am writing, the other person cannot see what I am doing. That is the only bad thing about these boards.
Doug
No offense taken, I kinda thought you were kidding but decided to play it on the safe side
Quote from: "phat rat"No offense taken, I kinda thought you were kidding but decided to play it on the safe side
Looks good Jack. I hope to do that someday. My current motor is too much of a wimp :cry: .
See you are just a month and a day behind me on birthdays. Happy Birthday almost. About a month and a half to the first soc. sec. check and counting :D .
c ya, Sum
Quote from: "sal37"Sum
I have looked at your fantastic site but this TV cable stuff scares the s*#t out of me as I haven't had anything to do with autos before and have read some stories about fried tranmissions etc. I will have time to learn as it will be a little time off before I will get the trans rebuilt and installed. The ongoing house extensions have pretty much wiped out my car account but at least the quality of life on the domestic front has improved.
Steve
I used the site Sum has to set up mine. It's a 2X2 on a 250 six, not your average setup. Works great. It's not as hard as everyone makes it out when you have guidelines to follow.
Quote from: "1FATGMC"Quote from: "phat rat"No offense taken, I kinda thought you were kidding but decided to play it on the safe side
Looks good Jack. I hope to do that someday. My current motor is too much of a wimp :cry: .
See you are just a month and a day behind me on birthdays. Happy Birthday almost. About a month and a half to the first soc. sec. check and counting :D .
c ya, Sum
I've got too wait until the 1st Wed in May for my first S.S. check. Been waiting a long time for this to come. Thanks for the happy b-day
Quote from: "phat rat"Just showing that the 700R's aren't necessarily weak trannies
Really?
all photos are from different trannys, not the same one
8)
Quote from: "1FATGMC"Quote from: "sal37"Sum
I have looked at your fantastic site but this TV cable stuff scares the s*#t out of me as I haven't had anything to do with autos before and have read some stories about fried tranmissions etc. I will have time to learn as it will be a little time off before I will get the trans rebuilt and installed. The ongoing house extensions have pretty much wiped out my car account but at least the quality of life on the domestic front has improved.
Steve
It isn't that bad. Get a protractor out and lay the angles and distances out on a card full scale. Cut the paper so you can hold it up to the bellcrank on the carb and see where you are at when you move the bellcrank from closed to WOT. Then modify the bellcrank to the right angles (I show how I modified mine). You can also get adapters now for a number of carbs that are all set up to give you the right geometry.
I'm well aware of what house building can do (http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/newhouse/house-index.html) to you and the budget. Once it is done though it is nice.
Hope to be over there during the next couple years to go to your salt flats. I'll help you then 8) .
c ya, Sum
Thanks Sum, I look forward to seeing you over here (and any other RRT members) You might know some of the guys that race at our salt but I could put you in touch with some of the guys that are involved. I understand it is very "rustic" with none of the great facilities at Wendover.
Steve
Quote from: "Crosley"Quote from: "phat rat"Just showing that the 700R's aren't necessarily weak trannies
Really?
all photos are from different trannys, not the same one
8)
Tony how about a little background on those pictures. Were those stock 700's? Had you guys re-built them before the damage? Were they in vehicles with improperly adjusted TV cables? Do you feel any were just plane abused by the owners? etc., etc.
Thanks for any further input,
Sum
Sum,
it is best thought of as the weakest link between the engine and asphalt.
The exploded Blazer 700 tranny case....... we were told the guy was simply driving away from a friends house. The tranny made a noise and quit moving the owner said.
yeh , right
:lol:
Sum, Jack I have been collecting social security since last July. I love getting that monthly return of my money. I also try to thank all my working friends for the money and encourage them to keep up the good work. I hope ya'll enjoy your checks.
Good thread.
dave
Another broken 4L60E tranny I fixed today. This is a 2005 unit behind a supercharged 5.3 in a pickup truck.
Damage is indicative of a neutral drop. THe roller clutch takes all the power during a first gear launch when the shifter is in "OD" or "D".... in manual 1st gear on the shifter the clutch pack for low/reverse is applied which is much stronger
A neutral drop puts this part under a great deal of instantly applied stress
QuoteTHe roller clutch takes all the power during a first gear launch when the shifter is in "OD" or "D".... in manual 1st gear on the shifter the clutch pack for low/reverse is applied which is much stronger
Tony, Is this also true or the 700 R4 and the 200 4R or it exclusive to the 4L60 only?
dave
Quote from: "soldermonkey"THe roller clutch takes all the power during a first gear launch when the shifter is in "OD" or "D".... in manual 1st gear on the shifter the clutch pack for low/reverse is applied which is much stronger
Tony, Is this also true or the 700 R4 and the 200 4R or it exclusive to the 4L60 only?
dave
First ;
the 700r4 and 4L60 are the same tranny, different name.
The 4L60E / 4L65E / 4L70E is an electronic controlled version of the 700/4L60 tranny. Basic internal parts are the same, some variations due to updated parts, electronic sensors & controls. When done correctly ; I can put 1982 700 parts into a 1990 tranny case (an example only!)
In the 200-4r tranny when the shifter is manual 'low' gear..... the low/reverse clutch pack is applied to add holding power. Same applies to the t-350 tranny.
A t-400 has a band that is applied in manual 'low' gear on the shifter to add holding power to the roller clutch
8)
keep in mind when chosing gears that you have a lockup converter. to high of a gear and you'll be in and out of lockup at hwy speed. i run 3:73, 3:89 or 4:11's with the 200. the 200 is a true 4 speed and is double tuff. the problem with the 700 is when it goes it takes out everything. they just exsplode the case as in the pics. i quit using the 700 in 90. low gears and a tight converter can be a blast to drive. try to setup for 2k at 70.
Looking at a 200-4r to replace my 350 for those long distance trips. The seller [about 75 miles away] said he thinks it came out of an '88 olds but that's all he knows. Would there be any difference between a V8 and a V6 '88 Olds 200-4r, assuming they were available on both? Also, based on this thread so far, it sounds like my 3:00 rear end gear will have to go - 9" ford rear with 235/75/15 tires which I'm thinking about replacing with a little taller tire. You're thoughts. Thanks.
Lee
Quote from: "Grandadeo"Looking at a 200-4r to replace my 350 for those long distance trips. The seller [about 75 miles away] said he thinks it came out of an '88 olds but that's all he knows. Would there be any difference between a V8 and a V6 '88 Olds 200-4r, assuming they were available on both? Also, based on this thread so far, it sounds like my 3:00 rear end gear will have to go - 9" ford rear with 235/75/15 tires which I'm thinking about replacing with a little taller tire. You're thoughts. Thanks.
Lee
I don't know if all of the 200R4 had the dual bolt pattern or not, but be sure this one does so you can bolt it to your motor. I don't know if there were different versions of the 200 or not. Someone else can help you with that.
You should be able to keep the same drive shaft, but you will probably have to make or modify the rear crossmember support. You will also have to make the modifications for the TV cable and also the electrical. Not a big deal, but do it right. I would strongly recommend spending the $70 or so and put in a TCI or someone else's lockup kit in the transmission and this is easier if it is out of the car. They come with complete instructions. I have a toggle switch on the 200R4 in my Buick now and I'll do the TCI kit at some point. The toggle switch is a pain in the butt.
I would recommend getting rid of the 3.00 gears for 3.50's to 3.73's. If not you will be like me right now where the overdrive is just too much overdrive in most instances and you won't really be saving any money on gas.
Make the changes and you will love it. You will have much better acceleration and much better fuel mileage.
c ya, Sum
Thanks Sum. The 200-4r is advertised as a dual bolt pattern trans so bolting up to my 350 small block shouldn't be a problem. Good to here about the drive shaft not needing to be shortened. I'll be going through that with my panel truck project, changing from a C-4 to an AOD. Now I wonder what gears are in that old nine inch laying out in the garage?
Lee
Found THIS LINK (http://members.aol.com/powerrslid/thm2004r.html) that I had on 200's. Might help someone.
Sum
the 200 only needs 1 hot wire for the pressure solenoid. no switch needed.
Quote from: "shine"the 200 only needs 1 hot wire for the pressure solenoid. no switch needed.
Do you have a wiring diagram for that showing how to wire it to the pins on the side connector? I have 12 volts wired to the tranny through the the toggle switch and if I leave it on then it locks in 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
If there is a way to wire it direct in a stock 200 so it only locks going in and out of 4th I would like to know.
I don't like it locked in the other gears as it lugs too much.
Thanks,
Sum
ign hot to " a " pin. top left looking at the plug. it's locking in every gear you have another problem. i've had solenoids go bad. not wanting to unlock when stopping. the govnor plays a part in this also. sounds like you need to get it checked out by a trans man. you may need to change the govnor. you can run without the lockup.
ps i know just enough about these to be dangerous. i dont build them, just use them in my builds.
(http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/700R4-TCI%20-a.jpg)
Quote from: "shine"ign hot to " a " pin. top left looking at the plug. it's locking in every gear you have another problem. i've had solenoids go bad. not wanting to unlock when stopping. the govnor plays a part in this also. sounds like you need to get it checked out by a trans man. you may need to change the govnor. you can run without the lockup.
ps i know just enough about these to be dangerous. i dont build them, just use them in my builds.
I do have 12v. to the A pin. I'm not having a problem with it locking in 2 and 3rd. It only locks there if I have the toggle thrown and 12 volts to A. It is locking and unlocking fine depending on the 12 volts being applied or not.
I'll check which pins I have grounded as I did this a couple years ago under less than ideal circumstances (I was pretty sick) I was in good company though :D (WZJUNK and Larry-thanks again guys). In the picture above if pin B is always grounded you are going to lock the converter in 2nd, 3rd and 4th anytime 12 v. is applied to pin A. If pin B is left "ungrounded" and pin D is grounded you are going to lock the converter only when the internal normally open pressure switch is activated by pressure in 4th gear if there is such a switch in the transmission. In the picture there is because it is supplied with the TCI kit and you install it.
I thought that was true of the 200 as well. When I get it all figured out I'll post the results. I'm in no big hurry as we run around our little town here in 3rd and only use 4th on long trips and I'm still fine there with the toggle switch the way it is now.
Thanks and c ya, Sum
i run only the a pin hot. no other wires are needed.
Quote from: "1FATGMC"The 700 has a much deeper 1st gear (3.0?) vs about a 2.5 in the 200. Running 3.50 gears with the 700 is like having 4.11's to 4.20's using a 200 or 350 in first. That is nice with a heavier vehicle or if you are geared high in the rear end say less than a 3.23, but that is where the tires come into play. I run a 3.50 rear with 28 inch tires and a 700 and really like it in my truck (75mph at about 2400 rpm). You might be running a 30 inch tire or something like that though.
You should be fairly light, so either would probably be a good deal. The 700 is easier to find and probably cheaper. If you run something larger than a 28 inch tire I would recommend a rear gear of 3.50 to 3.73 with the 200 and at least a 3.23 with the 700.
The drag racers like the 200 for the smaller drop in rpms during the 1-2 shift. The other thing is that the 200 is the same length as a 350 and the 700 is longer. The 200 is also a little smaller all around which might matter to you and the 700 is longer by I'll guess 7-8 inches. If that works with the car length I'd use the 700 if you have neither now.
Don't gear the car too high as the fun of these transmissions is you can have good acceleration and low cruise rpms.
Either way don't use the 350. If you ever use a good overdrive on a street car I doubt you would ever go back.
c ya, Sum
What gear ratio do you run in your pickup? I have the same setup you've described in my pickup and I'll be running a 10 bolt posi unit with 3.42 gears.
Chebby
Does any-one know how much a 200 "consumes" by comparison to say a powerglide, or a T350, or a T700R?
Quote from: "Chebby"What gear ratio do you run in your pickup? I have the same setup you've described in my pickup and I'll be running a 10 bolt posi unit with 3.42 gears.
Chebby
I have a 3.50 rear with 28" tires. Just got back from World Finals at B'ville a couple hours ago. Right at 19-20 mpg going and coming running 75+ most of the time.
I attribute some of the the mileage to the q-jet, cam, heads, etc. and the fact that the truck is 18 inches lower than it was stock :wink: . The motor does have 140,000 on it now.
If any of you guys are into trying to get the dynamic compression right to run a certain octane gas be sure and check out the following page on my site:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/techinfo/tech--dcr%20combinations-1.html
c ya,
Sum
I have a pretty strong 383 SBC in my 32 coupe and run a 700R4 with 3:55 gears and 255/75x15's and it seems about a perfect match to me. I wouldn't want the gears any lower and don't need them any lower believe me! I'm building a 40 pickup now and am contiplating using the same combination on it cuz it just seems to work right. Actually the gears in the 8.8 Ranger rear end I'm using in the truck seem like they might be a bit low, but I'm going to try them and see what happens.