The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: trackster on June 25, 2005, 12:39:53 AM
Howdy, I haven't posted in quite a while, but have been here every night checking up on the latest and learning what I can. I hope to get started on the track roadster Abone this fall (still gathering parts) and was wondering if anyone has used the adjustable dead perch from the DeuceFactory (I think), that is supposed to eliminate the need for a panhard bar on the frontend. I am going to use shocks mounted under the nose and activated by a rocker and arm setup to clean up the looks of the front and would like to use the dead perch also. Any thoughts, comments and/or jokes would be appreciated. Thanks abunch. I plan on having the "Abone Delivery Inc." pickup in Louisville and hope to meet some of you. If I can get a decent pic I will post it in the Members Rides section. trackster
What a coincidence! I had dead perch for supper last night, my GF had the fried cod. Actually, the restaurant called it fried perch, but it was still dead. Sorry, can't help you with the car part of your question, but you said you would appreciate jokes also. :lol:
The dead perch was good, too. It came with baked mac and cheese, salad, chicken tortellini soup, and cake for dessert.
Quote from: "58 Yeoman"What a coincidence! I had dead perch for supper last night, my GF had the fried cod. Actually, the restaurant called it fried perch, but it was still dead. Sorry, can't help you with the car part of your question, but you said you would appreciate jokes also. :lol:
The dead perch was good, too. It came with baked mac and cheese, salad, chicken tortellini soup, and cake for dessert.
I remember when I was about 17 my parents went on holidays; part of my 'responsibility' was to look after Mum's talking budgie (budgerigar - small parrot). Anyway, it started to fret straight away, and just stopped eating. It was getting wobbly on its perch (you can now see where this is head'n; right?).
I tried force feeding! In desperation, I brought in 'Alf' the neighborhood budgie expert. He took one look and said; it'll be dead by morning, and theres nothing for it. So, here I am watching this wobbly budgie, and trying to talk it out of croaking; when it went 'flop'; off it's perch! I picked it up and placed it back on it's perch, with strict instructions not to die for a week or so at least; then a few minutes later; 'flop' again. After three 'flops'; I sorta wedged it up against the feed container. Next morning it was 'dead on the perch'; deceased; expired . . . and so on!
So, I'm back to Alf trying to get one that looks exactly the same; which I did (I thought). Of course, it didn't talk. I tried to tell Mum how it stopped eating, and then stopped talking (sorta true; right?), but she knew straight-up that it was a different budgie. I don't think Mum ever forgave me for that one!
Oh yeah; what was the question; Dead Perch? No, don't like them, seems like a real compromise to me.
I think this is an old trackster trick. I've seen pieces ofold race cars that were set up that way and I always liked the simplicity but I would imagine it would depend on your steering as to how "trouble free" it would be. If you are planning "drag link" steering you might eliminate the problems but if you use "cross steer" they might show up. A normal "pan-hard" rod goes from one side of the axel to the other side of the frame so it has some length to minimize it's affect on the other factors of steering. With that dead pearch the effective length of the pan-hard is only 1/2 the length of the spring. With cross-stear you are going to be dealing with a steering rod that is going from the pitman arm to the oposite spindle. That length is better than twice the length of 1/2 the spring. With the two arcs turning in the same direction on different lengths I would think that you'd be creating a "bump steer" situation. "Drag link" steering with the arcs going in different directions would somewhat cancel that "bump steer" situation. Just keep in mind that the length of the drag-link and the length of the radius rod needs to be close to the same length or you create the same problem in a different direction. I could discuss this for hours but I can't type that long. GPster
Following the other lines I need to pay more attention. I have been constructing a garden (fish) pond in my backyard. I need to revise my definitions of DEAD and PERCH. GPster
Quote from: "trackster"Howdy, I haven't posted in quite a while, but have been here every night checking up on the latest and learning what I can. I hope to get started on the track roadster Abone this fall (still gathering parts) and was wondering if anyone has used the adjustable dead perch from the DeuceFactory (I think), that is supposed to eliminate the need for a panhard bar on the frontend. I am going to use shocks mounted under the nose and activated by a rocker and arm setup to clean up the looks of the front and would like to use the dead perch also. Any thoughts, comments and/or jokes would be appreciated. Thanks abunch. I plan on having the "Abone Delivery Inc." pickup in Louisville and hope to meet some of you. If I can get a decent pic I will post it in the Members Rides section. trackster
Got a friend with a 29 a with a dead perch and it works fine. If I had it to do over I would have used one on my 32. There was an article in street rodder about em too and they didnt say anything negative about em either.
Dave
for the replys, and the jokes. :lol:
58 Yeoman - the perch sounds great. I'm kinda partial to cajun catfish, myself.
Pope - better a budgie than a wedgie :D
GPster - the bumpsteer was a concern of mine also. thanks for the input.
N8DC - I saw that article in street rodder and thought it looked like a nice clean setup but know one around here has any experience with one.
Thanks again for all the input. I'm going to ponder on this a while longer before I shell out the $ for the front end stuff. Your input has given me much to consider. trackster
know one - should be - no one :oops:
I have no experience with a dead perch.
I've read that using a panhard is a better way to go and dead perches are a race track device.
Regardless, I do see them on street runners now and then.
The one guy I talked to about it indicated it worked ok, but I'm guessing he had no experience with a panhard either.
The dead perch should go on the same side as your steering box from what I understand.
Makes sense, panhard chassis mounts - front and rear - go on the steering box side.
Anybody have any pixs? I am not fimiliar with the term and have built and raced or driven about eveything out there. How did this one get by LOL Maybe we call it a diff name here on the east coast? I dont get street rodder so i guess i missed out on something good. :(
If it locates the axle a long panhard bar is hard to beat. Watts links work the best but would look pretty dumb up front and a real * to mount.
Maybe its like a jacobs ladder?
Please no pixs of dead fish those we have here LOL
Here's one.
Priced at $150. for stainless.
Doesn't seem to save much money over a home-made panhard that costs less than $15. to make . . . inculding polyurethane bushings.
The spring eye is retained by the small cross-bolt you see.
I don't think I'd use one. I used one on my wife's 28 Model A and the car always leaned slightly toward the shackel side. I used a drag link steering. 65 Mustang. I finally redid the front end and used two shackels. Fixed the lean.
I did learn something from your post though. Well two things actually. C9 mentioned the dead perch should go on the driver's side. I put it on the passenger side. Who knew? Not me obviously. Second thing I learned, people eat perch? ugh.
What I was trying to explain was that using a Model A spring is probably only giving you a panhard rod that is about 15" long. You move a 15" arc up and down a couple of inches and you'll notice more difference tha you will if the arc is 36" long. What side to put the dead perch on is a good point that I forgot to mention. As far as the leaning, I can see where that would be a problem with a street driven car. On a dirt tracker the ground isn't level anyway so who could tell. If you are going for simplicity in the looks on the front of your trackster there is a certain simplicity to symetry or a shackle on both sides. As far as the effect a panhard rod would provide for steering and it's effect on simplicity, you could design a Watts Link set-up with the fulcrum fastened to the center of the axel and two short rods fastened to the framerails inside the track nose. GPster
Thanks to all for the info. I'm still investigating the possibilities, and waiting on the cash to accumulate. The investigating is going a lot better than the cash accumulation, though!
Things have been on hold for the last couple of days. My son and daughter-in-law, 5 months into a pregnancy with twins, lost them both Sunday morning. Sometimes it's hard to understand the trials of this life, aint it. trackster
Quote from: "trackster"Things have been on hold for the last couple of days. My son and daughter-in-law, 5 months into a pregnancy with twins, lost them both Sunday morning. Sometimes it's hard to understand the trials of this life, aint it. trackster
Sorry to hear that. I have been there myself and know what it feels like. It is not easy.
Quote from: "trackster"Things have been on hold for the last couple of days. My son and daughter-in-law, 5 months into a pregnancy with twins, lost them both Sunday morning. Sometimes it's hard to understand the trials of this life, aint it. trackster
A lot of times people seem to label their discussions with O/T and apoliguize for using the space to vent. These O/Ts keep me in line with the important things in somebody's life that fall ahead of cars. At the moment my list of things between me and cars is certainly not as devistating as that. I thought maybe I could help with the other problem but all I can do is offer condolences for this one. GPster
Thanks for the concerns. Yeah, something like this sure helps to get the priorities in line. Son and wife are doing well. He just bought a 1967 Camaro Z lookalike two weeks ago and called this evening to see if I wanted to go cruisin' Saturday. Probably a good idea, to get their minds off of everything, and I never turn down a chance to get the abone out.
trackster
I have run a dead perch on my car for 15 years or so. It works great for me. I have built some for friends and they like them too. I have built them from old perch bolts and also from new bar stock. The one shown in an earlier post is too long from bolt to spring mount and moves the car off center with the axle. I can e-mail drawings of my design for those interested. My drawing was published in Rod Action some years ago.
Dingus, Thanks for the input. Good to hear from someone who has a lot of experience with the dead perch setup. I would very much like to see the drawing you made. You wouldn't by any chance remember which issue of Rod Action that is in would you? I have a complete set and can look in there if you don't want to do the email thing. Thanks.
trackster
Quote from: "C9"...
The dead perch should go on the same side as your steering box from what I understand.
Makes sense, panhard chassis mounts - front and rear - go on the steering box side.
The second sentence makes sense and therfore makes the first seem wrong.
If half of the spring is now taking the place of the Panhard bar, the other end of the Panhard connects to the side of the axle away from the steering box and the counterpart dead perch would be on that away side too, wouldn't it?
I was thinking about this on the way home from the LA Roadster Show after discussing with the owner, the "dead perches" on both sides of that Candy Brown Model A modified that is on the cover and in R & C this (sept) issue.
He's currently running a very flat spring and hopeing some flex in the hairpins it's mounted in the middle of can take the flex without breaking anything. He said they did that because the front end was all over the place with shackles. I suggested using one dead perch and one shackle and he seemed to think that was a good idea. I suggested the dead perch on the drivers side becasue he has the rear Panhard frame mount on the drivers side like C9 said, but my "road thoughts" tell me the dead perch should go on the same side as the axle end of a Panhard.
Watcha think?
That is a neat looking car, but there are many engineering compromises made for the sake of looks. I saw several things that gave me pause when contemplating driving it any distance.
Quote from: "trackster"Dingus, Thanks for the input. Good to hear from someone who has a lot of experience with the dead perch setup. I would very much like to see the drawing you made. You wouldn't by any chance remember which issue of Rod Action that is in would you? I have a complete set and can look in there if you don't want to do the email thing. Thanks.
trackster[/quote
I don't remember the issue. It has been quite a while. I had the drawing so I could print it on a standard piece of paper. I can e-mail it ,I think, if I had your address. I will try to attach it and a pic of it installed and post it tomorrow.
Quote from: "C9"I have no experience with a dead perch.
The dead perch should go on the same side as your steering box from what I understand.
Makes sense, panhard chassis mounts - front and rear - go on the steering box side.
i've seen 'em both ways on oem stuff, late model 2wd 'burb rear axles for example
Quote from: "DrJ"Quote from: "C9"...
The dead perch should go on the same side as your steering box from what I understand.
Makes sense, panhard chassis mounts - front and rear - go on the steering box side.
The second sentence makes sense and therfore makes the first seem wrong.
If half of the spring is now taking the place of the Panhard bar, the other end of the Panhard connects to the side of the axle away from the steering box and the counterpart dead perch would be on that away side too, wouldn't it?
I suggested using one dead perch and one shackle and he seemed to think that was a good idea. I suggested the dead perch on the drivers side becasue he has the rear Panhard frame mount on the drivers side like C9 said, but my "road thoughts" tell me the dead perch should go on the same side as the axle end of a Panhard.
Watcha think?
No exactly sure what to think.
Ineresting question and I'm beginning to think it doesn't matter on a street car.
All the dead perches I've seen have been on the drivers side.
A perusal of an old Deuce Factory catalog shows the dead perch on the drivers side of the cover illustration 32 roadster. (not a photo)
A photo inside the catalog makes it appear that the dead perch is on the drivers side.
I've found the Deuce Factory's information and recommendations to be right on in their catalogs and on the phone.
(Good place to deal with by the way.)
If you look at the dead perch setup as a very short panhard then it does look like it should be on the passenger side.
If you think about having the axle precisely located similar to a panhard so the steering input from the draglink isn't affected then it seems the dead perch should be on the drivers side.
Things could get interesting with a very curved front spring.
Seems that hard bumps there could create a bit of bumpsteer with a dead perch regardless of which side it's mounted on.
Since the dead perch is a circle track racing device and USA circle burners run CCW (or, all left turns) perhaps they ended up on the left side of the car due to requirements for the left turn and keeping the loaded right tire on the ground over the bumpy dirt as an aid to steering traction.
Since that's the way it's traditionally done on the tracks, street dead perch runners probably copied the circle track choice of sides.
My end guess - ambivalent it is - is that it probably doesn't make any difference.
It would be an interesting experiment to try both sides and see what happens.
(When ya do, lemme know.)
If you have cross steer, then the dead perch should be on the side as the drag link attaches to the spindle. i.e. the passenger side.
This is exactly the same as you should mount a panhard bar if using cross steer.
If you have a rear panhard bar, it should mount to the passenger side of the rear axle as well, or else the car will be twitchy over bumps.
The guy who built my '32 chassis had previously done some work on a '32 roadster where the dead-perch was on the drivers side. He swapped it to the passenger side where it should be and said that the difference was very noticable and the car was a lot nicer to drive. This was a cross-steer car.
Based on his recommendation, I am using a Deuce factory dead perch but I am still a few months away from driving it.
Simon, Thanks for the info. I am a long way from the driving stage and would appreciate a report when you get yours on the road. I have decided to go with the dead perch setup, when I get to the purchasing point for the front end. I will be using a cross steer (Vega) box and will be running a triangulated 4-bar in the rear, so that should not be a factor.
Thanks to all who have added to my knowledge base. :shock: the learning never ends, but it doesn't seem to keep up with the forgetting!
trackster
I am not a fan of the Deuce Factory dead perch. It is too long and moves the whole car off center. The shackle ends up being almost straight down and binding. I would suggest you make your own. A friend made his by measuring the angle of the shackle as installed in his car and welded the links to his perch bolt. Looks stock and works great.
I had noticed that, but assumed it was a problem with the length of the main leaf in my front spring.
I am going to get a shorter main leaf made which will fix the shackle angle and the off-center problem at the same time. Making my own dead-perch would be another option, but I spent too much for the one I've got to not use it :)
Quote from: "Dingus"I am not a fan of the Deuce Factory dead perch. It is too long and moves the whole car off center. The shackle ends up being almost straight down and binding. I would suggest you make your own. A friend made his by measuring the angle of the shackle as installed in his car and welded the links to his perch bolt. Looks stock and works great.