The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: enjenjo on March 19, 2005, 01:21:51 AM
I am ordering some terminals and wire, and it occurred to me that most people aren't aware of what terminals we should be using.
There are several grades of terminals, the cheap ones just have a rolled barrel for the wire, and a piece of vinyl stuck over it for insulation. theses are in most cases junk, when you try to crimp them the barrel distorts, and the wire isn't secured properly. Futhermore, when there is vibration, the wire can fail next to the crimp.
The next grade up has a rolled body, with a thin tubular metal sleeve over it, and then the vinyl tube insulation. this is better than the lower grade terminals, the tube keeps the barrel from distorting as much, and acts as a strain relief for the wire, to help keep it from breaking next to the crimp.
The best grade terminals have a rolled and brazed body, with a molded nylon insulator. The brazed body makes an excellent crimp with little or no distortion of the body. The molded insulator has a molded in strain relief, that supports the wire next to the crimp.
Most of the mass market Bag-o-terminals are of the first type, most of the pasts store turntables have the second type. The best terminals are harder to find, although most manufacturers make them. NAPA stores stock the second type, but can order the best ones, it's a sperate section in the catalog. the only ones of the best type I see in the stores around here are Noble brand. I usually order them in bulk from Del City Wire, or Waytec Wire.
Insulated terminals should be crimped with a crimper with jaws like this (), not with the ones with a peg in one jaw. The peg type cuts the insulator, and may damage the wire if crimped too hard.
As far as soldering terminals, insulated terminals should not be soldered, if you are going to solder them, get uninsulated terminals, and insulate with shrink tube after soldering. I use only brazed barrel uninsulated terminals. Crimp lightly to hold them in place, heat the terminal, and apply just enough solder the fill the barrel. If the solder wicks into the wire beyond the barrel, the wire will likely break where the solder stops. Then shrink the insulation on. I will not use PVC heat shrink, it doesn't hold up well in areas with constant heat such as engine compartments. I use only Polyolefin shrink tube, where weather is a factor, I use dual wall polyolefin, which has an adhesive sealant on the inside. You can buy terminals with heat shrink already on them, over a nylon insulator, they work ok, but are kind of ugly when done.
You can also use uninsulated terminals, without soldering them, crimp in place, the peg type crimpers are made for this, and install shrink tube over the crimp.
Butt connectors should be avoided if possible, but if you must use them, use uninsulated, brazed barrel butt connectors with shrink tube over it. make sure the shrink tube is at least 1/2" past either end of the butt connector barrel for strain relief. not only will this be a neater looking job, but you can inspect the crimps before installing the insulation.
....and if you're going to solder them, don't use acid flux...use rosin flux or rosin core solder.
There are several grades of terminals, the cheap ones just have a rolled barrel for the wire, and a piece of vinyl stuck over it for insulation. theses are in most cases junk, when you try to crimp them the barrel distorts, and the wire isn't secured properly. Futhermore, when there is vibration, the wire can fail next to the crimp.
Well no wonder mine always fall apart. I really didn't know that there was different types. Thanks Frank, I'm about to start the final wiring on my truck project, i gonna go looking for the "good ones" today :D
Really great info, especially considering the difference between an excellent and a poor job is only a couple `o bucks.
I nominate this post for TechOMatic...err I mean the Tech section.
I guess I use the mid quality units the most.
I solder and use shrink tube on them.
I do the same a Crosley, soldier and shrink tube every connector. I have found its difficult (well I havent found it for sale in town yet at all) to find the shrink tubing with the glue inside. Luckily, my brother's shop uses it so I get it from him, but Id really like to find my own supply. None of the auto stores to Wal-Mart or Lowes sell the good shrink tubing.
Any suggestions? I honestly havent tried the electrical stores yet, and I really dont trust our Radio Shack.
Waytec Wire has it, and at a good price too. Also Del City Wire in OKC has it. We have a shop here in Toledo that specialises in wire, terminals, and connectors that carry it too.
Quote from: "enjenjo"There are several grades of terminals, the cheap ones just have a rolled barrel for the wire, and a piece of vinyl stuck over it for insulation. theses are in most cases junk, when you try to crimp them the barrel distorts, and the wire isn't secured properly. Futhermore, when there is vibration, the wire can fail next to the crimp.
That's because they're not properly crimped.
A proper crimp should create a mechanical connection on BOTH the wire and the insulation.
The insulation should be butted up against the wire barrel.
The wire barrel should be then crimped in a set of dies that TOTALLY surrounds the connector and, once the crimp is completed, an homogeneous mass of metal results. Crimpers that dimple the connector will result in premature fractures at the point of contact due to the localized strain placed on the wire strands.
At the same time, a similar crimp needs to be completed around the insulation. This insulation crimp creates a strain relief AWAY from the stripped end of the insulation where the connection is the weakest.
Soldering should not, for the most part, be used on automotive terminals except to seal the ends of the strands to the crimp connector. When solder is allowed to wick down the strands, the connection becomes brittle and will soon fracture.
Solder terminals can and should be crimped prior to soldering the ends. This provides a strong mechanical connection prior to the addition of the solder. A heavy (dual wall) shrink tubing should be installed after the ends are soldered to provide the same strain relief action as the (far superior) plastic crimp connectors provide.
Then cover it with dual wall shrink tubing
I have use the cheap connector for years and not had problems. When I use a butt connector, I use one big enough so I can bypass the stripped wires before I crimp them. The only time I have the wires break is if I crimp on the edge of the crimp sleeve. Granted, there are better ways and connectors but the cheaper ones will do for light loads.
The way I look at it, I am putting in way too much time, effort, and money to not do the job the best I can. Especially when doing it right doesn't cost much more. I don't need problems at bad times at some point "down the road".
They do make special anti-wicking tools that grabs the wire after the terminal and sinks the heat out so that solder doesn't run up the wire. However, if you have enough hands, a pair of needle nose pliers will usually work. Small medical "hemostats" that lock in place also work well.
As for fluxes, even RMA flux has some amount of "activator" in it that's an acid base. I like to clean all connections with alcohol and a small brush.
There are professional crimping tools right? I wonder if one of you guys might show a pair and tell us where to buy them?
I was taught in my Nasa Spec soldering classes that the proper way to make a connection is to first make a sound mechanical connection, and then solder with minimal solder, and then clean and inspect.
Steve
Quote from: "58Apache"There are professional crimping tools right? I wonder if one of you guys might show a pair and tell us where to buy them?
Steve
I have these
(http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/28000/27938.JPG)
these
(http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/28600/28550.JPG)
and these
(http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/42700/42672.JPG)
All from snap on
For the money, you can't beat this crimper kit. It comes with 5 sets of dies and will, also, accept the MSD spark plug wire dies.
It's made by Tool Aid and sells for around $64.
It crimps BOTH the wire barrel and insulation barrels in one operation.
I'll try and shoot a pic of my crimper collection and post it along with some terminal criomp shots
Skip,
Who sells Tool Aid? I have never heard of this brand.
MikeC
Quote from: "MikeC"Skip,
Who sells Tool Aid? I have never heard of this brand.
MikeC
Most tool trucks (MAC, Snap-On, Cornwell, etc) carry it, sometimes under their own brand name.
You can mail-order it from www.thetoolwarehouse.net too. Just put tool aid in the search box and you'll find the crimper and the crimper kit down near the bottom of the list.
http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TTW119.html#5423
Quote from: "Skip"Then cover it with dual wall shrink tubing
I'm not familar with dual wall. Never seen it available.
Some applications I use two pieces of regular shrink tube
Quote from: "Crosley"Quote from: "Skip"Then cover it with dual wall shrink tubing
I'm not familar with dual wall. Never seen it available.
Some applications I use two pieces of regular shrink tube
It's available most anywhere. The inner layer is an adhesive/sealant that weatherproofs the connection. AMP is one brand.
I buy shrink tube from Fry's elelctronics here. They have the larger stuff for battery terminal / cable ends
Quote from: "enjenjo"
It's available most anywhere. The inner layer is an adhesive/sealant that weatherproofs the connection. AMP is one brand.
Well then, go to Fry's, and ask for dual wall Polyolefin shrink tube.
Am I just lucky? While I would not disagree with anything that that was said previously, I' ve done three cars with the ordinary insulated type of terminals, a crimper with the bump on it and have only experienced one terminal coming loose/broken. And that was the car I wired about 20 years ago and have driven the hell out of the car. And I am fussy how everything goes together, how it looks and durability.
I don't know about you being lucky, but my past experiences come under the heading of Murphy's Law. If it could go wrong it did, and sometimes at the worst possible times.
I used to do the "wrap the wires together and then use electrical tape" method, and if failed more often than not. I also crimped using cheap crimpers, and the wire pulled out with the slightest tug.
Since then I learned how easy it is to solder wires, if you know a few easy rules. Try tugging on a well soldered connection and chances are it will break somewhere else before it breaks at the soldered joint. Add to that a good mechanical crimp before you solder, and the chances of that joint failing at the wrong time are nil.
I plan on driving my vehicle to car shows many miles from home. I'll likely have minimal tools with me, and little no chance of soldering on the road.
I figure I have a lot invested in a road trip, from vacation time to plans with friends that I don't want to hold up or put a burden on, not to mention gas, food, and motels.
The last thing I need is a problem on the road, so IF I can do things that minimalize that possibility, I will.
One last thing. I believe that vehicle fires are one of the most common non-accident ways of destruction of a vehicle. I believe I read that electrical problems are the #1 cause of vehicle fires?
Most guys will do a lot of things to car to upgrade them, but electrical work seems to be the #1 most avoided upgrade, due to fear and lack of understanding. This is a good place to help out those that need a helping hand in this area.
Steve
I don't have much luck doing things the "easy , quick " method. :shock:
A friend came by my house years ago with his 26 foot enclosed trailer. he wanted me to fix his wires from the trailer to the truck.
He had used butt connectors to extend the trailer wires. He used common slip joint pliers to crush the connectors and wondered why the wires would pull out easily.
It took me an hour to cut his crap out and solder in some new wires and hook up a new plug
AMP is one brand, (Aircraft Marine Products) of terminal end that I use exclusively. They are the high end type; brazed barrel. They are available in both insulated and un-insulated.
I also use their crimp tools. (they are designed for the ends they make)
The set that I have, that Skip shows, is very much the same. (interchangeable dies) They allow for a wire and insulation crimp at the same time
They also make the various types of shrink tube. Single wall, double wall (with sealant) and "hard" wall. (improves mechanical connection)
Check under "Aircraft Electrical Supplies" in the yellow pages.
http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?category=Shrink%20Tube%20%26%20Tape&page=1
Go here and buy it in 4 foot lengths. It's cheaper that way.
the dual wall stuff shrinks down to twice the thickness of the normal stuff. the triple wayy (for battery cables) is thre times as thick as the normal stuff.
Quote from: "Skip"http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?category=Shrink%20Tube%20%26%20Tape&page=1
Go here and buy it in 4 foot lengths. It's cheaper that way.
the dual wall stuff shrinks down to twice the thickness of the normal stuff. the triple wayy (for battery cables) is thre times as thick as the normal stuff.
That's where I get it too.
i bought the tool skip suggested. neat setup. I ordered it sunday and it arrived today
I bought a few other items .
another 100 bux spent on this hobby
One for the Tech section?
Quote from: "enjenjo"Quote from: "Skip"http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?category=Shrink%20Tube%20%26%20Tape&page=1
Go here and buy it in 4 foot lengths. It's cheaper that way.
the dual wall stuff shrinks down to twice the thickness of the normal stuff. the triple wayy (for battery cables) is thre times as thick as the normal stuff.
What thicknesses of the shrink tube should I buy? There is 1/8. 1/4, on up. I will be wiring the entire car using a wiring harness so I really don't need much, but I am not sure how much this stuff shrinks.
MikeC
Most of it shrinks about 50 percent reliably. 1/8" is good for 18 ga wire or smaller 3/16" for 14-16 ga. and 1/4" for 10-12 ga. You're right, you won't need that much for one car.
Hello!
When it came to doing electric hook ups and wiring in cars, I finally got so frustrated that I completely went crazy! I bought a tool box just for car electric, supplied it with every kind and size of wire, every kind and size of strippers, crimpers, and cutters. Then I added anything and everything I thought I might need for any kind of wiring install, including: tie wraps of various sizes and colors, and I am always buying additions to put in this tool box.
I must say that buying specialized tools. components, and accessories to do auto wiring and repair has made several jobs I've done on my cars as well as friend's cars really easy and turned out much better! I even went as far as to ad testing equipment to this "electronic" tool box.
When I need soldering done, I give it to my wife, she is certified in soldering and makes specializes assemblies for aircraft and military use.
Theres nothing like having all the right tools and supplies to do any kind of job!!!
Bruce
I'll be doing a bit of rework on my harness, and I want it to work right every time. I would assume that the crimp kit Skip is recommending will work on the GM terminals I need to replace? I have to find them first. I went to NAPA and couldn't score them there. I will try the Chevy dealer next. I may check to see if Rhode Island wire has them. They have a good selection of stuff.
Female Terminals
http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?parentid=9291&childid=150481&page=1&tabset=1&pageitem=1&new=y
Male Terminals
http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?parentid=9292&childid=151334&page=1&tabset=1&pageitem=1&new=y
Housings Click here then look at the selection on the left.
http://www.delcity.net/delcity/servlet/catalog?parentid=9288&childid=149623&page=1&tabset=1&pageitem=1&new=y
oh, yea. You can buy a hundred for what you'd pay for ten at NAPA
http://www.electerm.com/packard.html
these may be what you need too. follow the links to other GM terminals.
how is the quality of the terminals that come in the kits i.e. ron francis, centech, painless?
thanks jim
ps enjenjo check your link
Quote from: "river1"how is the quality of the terminals that come in the kits i.e. ron francis, centech, painless?
thanks jim
ps enjenjo check your link
All three of those you mentioned have good quality crimps. Ron Francis, however, puts far too many joints in many of teyh circuits. Every joint cuts down on the capacity of the circuit to adequately conduct electricity.
American Autowire's kits are good, too.
You'll most likely notice that these are all priced a bit higher than the others. There's a reason for it. Quality costs money. Outsourced manufacturing may be good for some things but it certainly hasn't proved very good in teh aftermarket harness indstry.
thanks skip
i figure on using a centech and just named the rest off the top of my head.
later jim
Quote from: "river1"the rest off the top of my head.
later jim
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