The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: WZ JUNK on January 22, 2023, 08:20:28 AM
A thread for those of us who are interested in converting to fuel injection. I am currently in my second set up. The first was the factory GM throttle body that I am using in my 54 Chevy. That car has been driven over 20,000 miles without problems other than a stumble before it warms to operating temperature. Currently I am installing a Holley Sniper on my old truck. I will start posting updates and progress as I go along.
I chose the Holley for a number of reasons but primarily because I have the availability of a lot of local tech support. I like the fact that a lot of the components are off the shelf GM. My system will also use a factory GM pump in the gas tank. Going in to this project with the Holley, my only problem with there design is that the computer is part of the throttle body. I do not care for the computer in the heat and environment of the engine compartment. However it must work because there are a lot of them on the road.
Feel free comment on any service, brand, installation, problems, or just anything that has to do with electronic fuel injection.
I'll be interested to see how your conversion goes.
They weren't the first, but Fitech made the initial splash in bringing prices down with a proprietary throttle body stuffed with OEM parts. This one and Holley Sniper share that common design, with all the electronics riding on the throttle body. I see now that Summit and Jegs both have systems with their own branding on them which are built the same.
By all accounts you can run almost anything with a Microsquirt or Megasquirt system. Multiport, TBI, ignition control, boosted engines, nitrous...pretty much whatever. While it's DIY up to and including soldering up the control board if you want, the tuning is also really intensive. Good if it's something that interests you, One more thing with a learning curve if you don't.
At this point in the technology I think it would be very frustrating to get involved in an early EFI system of the sort which has to be tuned with a chip. The PIMPxs system is a Megasquirt-based system which puts later technology and flexibility into early Ford EFI systems.
One of the things which frustrates me about aftermarket EFI is that so few of them use an OBDII port. Maybe there's regulatory reason I don't know of, or maybe it's just that they don't want people playing with their proprietary systems. One of the reasons for the frustration is that there are some really good programs now to use a digital display as a dashboard using data from the EFI system. You need an OBDII port to run them, or you're stuck with the digital display sold by the EFI vendor. In that case options are limited and the units tend to be expensive.
I hope you didn't take your intent for the thread wrong, this is just free associating some of my thoughts on EFI conversions.
You are on the money. I intend to buy the adapter so that I can tune the Holley with a lap top in the future but that is a point in the distant future.
The mega squirt would have been very interesting when I was younger.
Some of my old friends are hassling me for trying the fuel injection. They still claim that a carburetor is the only fitting fuel system for a true hot rod. That may be so. If you stand at an intersection on a busy street and count the cars that you think may have carburetors, you will not count very many. There are many reasons that nearly every vehicle today is electronically fuel injected.
I looked at EFI many years ago, I think it was early Holley stuff? They were analog then. I did not know what analog meant. I talked around and decided to avoid the $$ expense and troubles.
I did a GM TBI conversion on a 1970 Chevy 4x4 truck for a friend. That was before the plug n play wire harnesses were on the market. I got the system working well. Used a Holley EFI pump on the frame rail with OEM fuel tank behind the seat. His MPG on the truck increased by 40% with no loss of power from the near stock 350cid engine. It was the old "plug in a chip" computer system.
I've been running a FItech injection system for about 5 years now. They came out in Jan. I think, and I bought in September. I've had two problems with it, one the 6 pin connector burnt through on the line providing 20 Amps to the fuel pump through 24 ga wire. And number two, was a wide open stuck injector. That's it. We took the car form London,ON. to Victoria BC for the Deuce Days show and no problems at all in a 7000 mile trip.
I am going to add some info that might help in purchasing. :)
The Summit, Jegs and Aces are the Fast Easy efi systems. They don't come with a regulator and have an ecu that can be mounted inside away from serious heat. The Summit and Jegs have a single O2 sensor. The Aces has 2 O2 sensors and the ability to control timing with the proper distributor. Aces is rated for higher hp. than the other 2. I read the Aces manual for their base model. I thought it was in a little plainer language than the Sniper that I recently used. Aces does have a stand alone model for LS's that offers trans control. I have no knowledge of whether Aces has a connection with Fast or they are just selling the similar throttle body. In the Fitech line is a similar setup. Fitech offers a unit for the older tuned port chevy's that has trans control, also. Installation of the wiring is very important. Any short cut may lead to RFI and erratic operation. We all know someone who got away with connecting the main power feed to the alternator instead of the battery. Do you want to find out if you are lucky? :) I believe in only having the pump in the tank. It needs to be a very clean tank. That real fine brown dust is enough to ruin a pump. I'm also a believer in having the correct size of pump. Most of the kits come with a large pump for 600hp. If you have only 300hp, the pump is bypassing constantly which aerates the fuel. If you by a Tanks unit with a 190 lt. pump, you will have plenty of capacity for 400 hp. Doing plenty of research prior to purchasing may help you buy the right parts the 1st time. I'm an absolute believer in efi. Finding the highest quality parts to ensure long life is very important to me. The sales of these units has been tremendous. The availability of info can help steer you in your purchase. :)
I am also a believer in EFI. Drivability, fuel mileage, and engine longevity are all improved with a well tuned EFI system. I was unaware of the Aces system, I have them up in another tab now and will comb through their website. Two fuel filters are often used on these systems. If you use an in tank pump that would be a 100 micron sock in the tank and a 10 micron filter after the regulator. With an external pump that would be a 100 micron before the pump and a 10 micron after. Some sources say you should use a stainless filter with gas that has any alcohol, but I'm convinced not all OEM filters are stainless. I guess that means check before buying. I know not everyone will agree with me on fuel that contains alcohol. I've burned it in everything I've owned since the 1970s when it first popped up as Gasohol. The most trouble I've had is a plugged fuel filter or two right after I start to use it, and that was years ago before it became the norm. Clean power is critical to everything with advanced electronics, from stereo gear to your home PC. Hey, you'll even mess up the reception on an AM radio if you don't do it right.
I am still up in the air about how to do EFI on my Stude. I located a Painless TBI EFI harness in my stash, and a Gm TBI throttle body. SO I have most of the parts needed to do it with what I have. Worst case I would have to get the computer reprogramed to use what I have.
Did the Edelbrock EFI sump systems not work out for retrofit to older cars? Seemed like an easy fitment to avoid $$ new fuel tanks for EFI in older cars?
A sump, or surge tank seems to work well Here is a link to make your own http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm but there are several others pre-made available.
That's a simple set up for a tank, but effective. Sometimes people use the mechanical fuel pump to fill the surge tank and an electric pump to get up to EFI pressure. That Simple Digital System looks like nice stuff. Should be, for experimental aircraft and race cars.
That's exactly what I used on my 57. A mechanical pump fills the reservoir and the high pressure pump in the reservoir feed the injectors
Thinking about the great little surge tank Frank pointed out:
Fuel surge tank (http://www.sdsefi.com/tank12.jpg)
You could add a submerged EFI pump to this by topping it with a tri-clamp ferrule, Teflon gasket, and cap end. Use a round fuel sock in the bottom to supply the required 100 micron filter. Fuel flowing down around the outside of the pump should keep it plenty cool.
One of my friends had the Fitech fuel command center on his truck. I don't remember is his came with the 255 or 340 lph pump. He had a 275 hp 350 in the truck. About 20 miles down the road, it would quit running properly. He figured out that is was vapor locking. Too much fuel pump capacity was percolating the fuel while operating. He moved the same pump to the tank and that was the end of the problem. That was 3 to 5 years ago and I see him everywhere I go with the same setup. He adapted that to his 5.3LS and is much happier. :)
That seems to be a pretty common problem, and it can get bad enough to ruin the fuel pump. That's where a surge tank is actually superior. It constantly recirculates the excess fuel back to the tank. Some users are modifying the Fitech Fuel Command Center to do the same thing. They remove the float valve in the unit and convert the vent tube into a return line.
https://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=4420 (https://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=4420)
Interesting read. I believe if that the engine only required a 114 lph pump and that was installed, the Fitech unit would work as designed. A 250hp engine with a 340 lph pump in the tank that for instance has a 12 gallon capacity and as the level goes down with usage can still create a vapor lock condition. Once fuel is aerated, it's pumpability (is that even a word :) ) is very poor. I understand there was marketing involved in the pump choice but IMHO, one size doesn't fit all. :)
Has anyone incorporated any type of fuel pump shutoff in case of accident? I was thinking if, god forbid, something were to happed that could be a disaster waiting to happen. My thinking was an inertial switch, or a mercury switch, or an oil pressure switch, or maybe a combination.
I use the Ford inertia switch as is part of an eec iv and v system. It's a simple device that is easily wired into the pump circuit that doesn't take external power to run it.
https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts/ford-inertia-switch-xw4z9341aa
On the Corvair sites I've started visiting since buying my Vair, many owners have gone to electric pumps as they can no longer find reliable mechanical pumps. Many have said they're installing inertia switches with the electric pumps. I haven't really followed those threads, as I'm still in the body work phase of getting the car ready for paint.
Every Ford has an inertial switch, and it's always installed in an accessible place because you have to go in and push the reset button should it get tripped.
I am making slow progress on the conversion of the old truck to fuel injection. I have spent a lot of time fixing things that did not relate to the change in fuel systems. Yesterday I discovered that I had ordered the wrong fuel sending unit for the Blazer gas tank I used in the truck. There were two sizes of tanks and of course I ordered the one for the other tank. I ordered the right one this morning but I will try to modify the other one while I am waiting. It will involve changing the fuel pump mount and the location of the fuel level sender. I might talk myself out of this and just use the right one.
So far things have went well. I know that if I did a second installation it would be much easier.
I would suggest a pro charger is next ? Boost is good !
"I know that if I did a second installation it would be much easier."
Isn't that always the case?
I have located information that will allow me to adapt my GM HEI ignition to the Holley computer. I like that option as it means that I can maintain my ignition system with over the counter parts. After I get the truck up and running, I will dive into the ignition system.
Today I am trouble shooting the ignition switch, making a bracket for the double throttle return springs, and working on the fuel line and return line.
I am in a puzzling situation on venting the tank. I have an unused fitting on the fuel assembly for the rollover valve. I would like to use this to keep the tank neutral and not under pressure or under vacuum. Does anyone have any thoughts on this problem and how I might use this port?
I hook a 3/8" line to the vent and make a loop up inside the fender held in place by the fender bolts into the bed side. and then cap it with a plastic differential vent.
I like that idea. Will the vent allow air to move both ways but be sealed when the tank is in a neutral pressure?
The vents that come on efi Ford trucks in the 80's are like that. None of them are easily adaptable to a hose but this is an example: https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1996,mustang,4.6l+v8+sohc,1134223,fuel+&+air,fuel+tank+vent+valve,11246
It will not be sealed at neutral pressure. You could run the line to a carbon filter, and purge it with engine vacuum.
Here's some info about using an HEI distributor with Holley EFI, or evidently Fitech as well. https://www.chevelles.com/threads/for-those-running-efi-that-want-a-low-cost-dist.966433/
The inexpensive HEI distributors for Fords are highly polarizing. Some like them for quite valid reasons, some hate the very look of them. They make small cap HEI distributors for Fords with separate coils which aren't terribly expensive and would seem to be the best of both worlds.