The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: Beck on July 07, 2015, 09:36:06 AM
Some of you were interested in updates on my little tractor project.Quote from: "jaybee"Sure, I'd love to see pics of the build. Yeah, it's sort of special interest but it's certainly a hot rod, and you never know what might contribute to something that runs with license plates, or on the drag strip, or the salt flats, or anywhere else.
Sorry no photos now (i'm at work) but I promise some soon.
The little tractor is coming along very slowly. I am having a lot of "redos". I have ask about several parts here so an update on those first.
For a transmission I decided on a simple 350 turbo. I went to a few pulls and clutch issues were a major problem. Ideally I would have used a shorty manual with a centrifugal (no pedal) clutch. Tuning is touchy on those clutches and it would have taken me a year to get it right. The 350 costs me a little power but the weight is about the same as a shorty iron manual box and clutch. I bought a 8" 4800 stall converter for the 350 turbo. It will run 1st gear only.
As I said before the rear axle is an aluminum 8.8 Ford. I am already on my 2nd one. The first I built with 9" bearing ends. I discovered if I pull with a different group I am limited to 12" diameter rear wheels. The brakes I had for the 9" (Explorer rotors with Wilwood calipers) wouldn't fit into those wheels. Most of the guys make deep "hats" for the rotors which works but is heavy. I am not a little guy, and am playing with a heavy motor and transmission so I am trying to keep the tractor as light as possible. The 2nd rear axle I built with 8.8 bearings. I mounted the factory Explorer backing plates that I cut all of the caliper brackets off of. I machined the rotor section off of the brakes. That leaves me with the mechanical drum parking brake setup. Each cable goes to a brake pedal so I have "steering" brakes. I will need to build one more axle. I will need to swap rear ends when changing from 12" whees (26" dia tires) to 15" wheels (34" dia tires). Changing the ring and pinion ratio is the only way I can figure out changing gear ratios. Letting the transmission shift into 2nd is to big of a gear jump.
We are having a record setting wet spring/summer. As a result it is more humid than typical. All of my metal work is rusting sitting in the garage.
I have the frame pretty well worked out. Front and rear axle are mounted. The rear fenders, seat, and hitch are on. The motor and trans are mounted. The trans needs some internal attention and the motor is just a mock up that needs complete building. It has no steering yet.
Some problem areas that I still have to work out are:
Steering - There is very limited room for a steering shaft next to the motor. My first option is a 8" rack and pinion like is used on Jr. Dragsters. http://www.viperizerracing.com/product-p/arc1411.htm
My second option is a cable setup which some of the other guys are using very successfully.
Cylinder head - I am going to buy an aftermarket aluminum head for the motor. It saves me 30 lb. I am unsure of which will work the best for my application. A Trick Flow A460 is the best flowing but the ports may be too big for my motor. The Kaas P51 would be the next step down. The final and the one I am leaning toward is the Ford Super Cobra Jet head. I can buy any of them complete but I am limited to a standard hydraulic cam by motor design. These come factory setup for roller cams.
Turbocharger - I am completely out of my league on this one. I don't know where to start. The Honda sized turbos are too small. The LS turbos are too big. There isn't much middle ground.
Fuel injection - This is going to run on alcohol, which takes the very little I knew about injection and throws it out.
Battery - I am size and weight challenged. I would prefer a regular auto battery for longevity. I bought a "jumper box" to rob the battery out of but am concerned about its abilities. I am not running a charging system. The battery has to be able to make 4 to 5 starts and power the fuel pump, injection and ignition for the runs. I don't think I can quick charge the "jumper box" battery. I would have room for dual "jumper box" batteries, but that doubles my chances of a battery failure. I don't know if they will handle the vibration of this little beast.
We really could use some pictures :lol:
Here are a couple of photos.
The rear frame photo shows the 6" x 6" aluminum plates that the rear axle is now welded to. There is no suspension on a tractor. The all thread is 3/4" B7 grade. In the center of the all thread is the part the hook attaches to. It is adjustable up and down by using the nuts on the all thread. We have to pull with a maximum of 13" hitch height. The higher the hitch the more down force on the rear tires. Changing tire pressure is enough to change hitch height. Eventually I want to be able to swap from 34" tires to 26" tires so I needed a lot of adjustment. I am afraid I am going to bend the all thread.
The front quarter shot shows about the way it is now. No steering yet. The motor work is yet to come.
The drivers cockpit is all bussiness. No padded seat. That allows me to slide around a little bit easier. Slide back to put more weight on the rear or forward to put more weight on the front of the tractor. A little weight transfer allows you to keep the front tires just touching the ground for steering. If you can't keep the front tires on the ground leaning right makes the tractor go left or lean left to go right. If that fails there are steering brakes like a big tractor.
The wheel well photo shows what is left of the Explorer rear disc brake. Just the center part of the rotor is left with a mechanical cable to the brake pedal on that side. (edit) I just saw that the cable is not in this photo. There is a 3/8 tube that connects to the backing plate and goes through the hole in the inner fender, then forward to the brake pedal.
The white on the fenders is the protective plastic that is used on aluminum sheeting. It gets removed for paint.
Sorry, but the only photos I can find of the rear axle are pretty poor. They were taken in the early am with sunlight coming through my garage door.
Quote from: "Beck"Some problem areas that I still have to work out are:
Steering - There is very limited room for a steering shaft next to the motor. My first option is a 8" rack and pinion like is used on Jr. Dragsters. http://www.viperizerracing.com/product-p/arc1411.htm
My second option is a cable setup which some of the other guys are using very successfully.
Cylinder head - I am going to buy an aftermarket aluminum head for the motor. It saves me 30 lb. I am unsure of which will work the best for my application. A Trick Flow A460 is the best flowing but the ports may be too big for my motor. The Kaas P51 would be the next step down. The final and the one I am leaning toward is the Ford Super Cobra Jet head. I can buy any of them complete but I am limited to a standard hydraulic cam by motor design. These come factory setup for roller cams.
Turbocharger - I am completely out of my league on this one. I don't know where to start. The Honda sized turbos are too small. The LS turbos are too big. There isn't much middle ground.
Fuel injection - This is going to run on alcohol, which takes the very little I knew about injection and throws it out.
Battery - I am size and weight challenged. I would prefer a regular auto battery for longevity. I bought a "jumper box" to rob the battery out of but am concerned about its abilities. I am not running a charging system. The battery has to be able to make 4 to 5 starts and power the fuel pump, injection and ignition for the runs. I don't think I can quick charge the "jumper box" battery. I would have room for dual "jumper box" batteries, but that doubles my chances of a battery failure. I don't know if they will handle the vibration of this little beast.
MT-51 interstate battery may be what you want, fit's Hondas...
I'm going to work on the drive shaft today. As you can see in the photos it will be SHORT, 5 1/4" center to center of the universal joints.
Explorers have drive shafts that have a splined slip section in them. One of the drive shaft yolks has the female part of the spline built in. I am chucking the splined section in the lathe. From the U-joint end am boring a 1.5" hole into it. This will then be cut off at a factory shoulder, about 1.5 inches deep. A 350 turbo transmission output yolk is 1.5" in diameter where it enters the transmission. I am taking one of these, cutting it to length, and inserting it into the machined Explorer part and welding them together at the right length. This will give me a small diameter, heavy wall, short shaft with a Ford joint on one end and a Chevy joint on the other.
Quote from: "tomslik"MT-51 interstate battery may be what you want, fit's Hondas...
Pricy little buggers. They are smaller than other car batteries, but bigger than the "jumper box" battery. I will check to see if it fits where I want it to go. Thanks for the input.
Is your fi mechanical or electric?
Quote from: "kb426"Is your fi mechanical or electric?
I have not got to that part yet. I am leaning to electronic, but have a local guy pretty good with home made mechanical stuff.
Suggestions?
I'm an absolute alky fan. It is the most forgiving and easiest to tune of all racing fuels. If you go electric, you will need something like a Holley Dominator system to handle that. You might be able to adapt a late model flex fuel system that will work with e85. In mechanical, I believe in only one way. You buy a new pump from Hilborn or Enderle of the right capacity, get the right throttle bodies whether you have to make a manifold or adapt something and have it flowed by someone who has computer technology to give you the right nozzle area versus jet area comparison and is able to give you baseline tuneup info so you won't waste all your time tuning it. I believe this to be the most important money you will spend. The stuff I removed from the 06 Grand Marquis 4.6 was all flex fuel for e85 so I know that is possible to use it. I wouldn't have the software or skills in the beginning to tune it. A self tuning program like the Holley might be the answer to this. If you don't want to have the weight and hassle of the battery system, the mechanical system will go to the front right away. Hope this helps some.
Quote from: "Beck"Quote from: "tomslik"MT-51 interstate battery may be what you want, fit's Hondas...
Pricy little buggers. They are smaller than other car batteries, but bigger than the "jumper box" battery. I will check to see if it fits where I want it to go. Thanks for the input.
If the battery in your "jump box" is similar to mine you may not get the performance out of it you expect. in my box the battery is similar to what is used in emergency lighting. Very small size but also limited cranking amps by itself. Look inside of your jump box to see if it used transformers or capacitors to boost the current.
moose
Looks really good Tom. You are getting a lot more done than I am this summer. I hardly get home long enough to mow the yard.
Byron Meltdown is next on the list.
John
Tractor looks kool. I too will chime in on alcohol as a good fuel for the same reasons as KB . If it were mine I would go mechanical injection ,magneto . Less need for a battery that may get pounded to death in a puller . are you allowed to start with a jumper battery?What are the chances you could run a coupler system like the funny cars and get a few different length driveshafts to allow you to move engine /trans forward and back for ballast changes? A friend of mine has been pulling for the last 35 years ,blown alky Donovan. He runs a pulling series in Canada , look up pinnacle motorsports .
Quote from: "moose"
If the battery in your "jump box" is similar to mine you may not get the performance out of it you expect. in my box the battery is similar to what is used in emergency lighting. Very small size but also limited cranking amps by itself. Look inside of your jump box to see if it used transformers or capacitors to boost the current.
Mine has the same battery. They are about 3 times bigger than our emergency lighting units. I didn't see any caps or transformers in my box. I noticed a small board but assumed it was to convert 110 ac to 12 vdc. I went cheap on mine. It is a HF unit. $40 with the 20% off coupon. I think it is going to get returned. I didn't rip it apart. I just took the back off for a peak.
The 51 series battery won't fit under my seat like the "booster" battery would. I will have to put it up front under the fuel tank with plenty of insulation. A spark there wouldn't be good.
Quote from: "WZ JUNK"You are getting a lot more done than I am this summer. I hardly get home long enough to mow the yard.
John
Every time it quits raining here I have to mow. It needs it now.
It has only rained twice here this season. Once for 45 days and now for 37 days.
kb426 & chimp koose,
I need to go with the alcohol for 2 reasons. First is the increase in power and another big one for me is cooling. I am going to run a dry block.
I like that methanol doesn't have a problem running very rich. That is an insurance blanket.
There is an ethanol plant close to me where I may be able to get E100. They have to put just enough gas into it so it cannot be drank. I am unfamiliar with the properties of ethanol compared to methanol. We get tank trucks of methanol at work, but I don't think they would appreciate being my fuel supplier.
The motor in the photo belongs to a friend of WZ JUNK and Hooley. The owner built all of the neat stuff including the sheet metal intake with injection. That is where I want to be.
Quote from: "chimp koose"If it were mine I would go mechanical injection ,magneto.
There could be a magneto made for this motor out of a 4 cyl Chevy II setup. Those used to be run in Midgets. The drive would have to be modified to install the Ford oil pump drive. There are probably some of these old mags somewhere, but to find one is another issue.
Quote from: "chimp koose"Are you allowed to start with a jumper battery?
It will need to be started too many times at an event for a jumper system. Some light modifieds run jump start setups but they have everything mounted in another vehicle, and always use a pull off vehicle at the end of the track.
Quote from: "chimp koose"What are the chances you could run a coupler system like the funny cars and get a few different length driveshafts to allow you to move engine /trans forward and back for ballast changes?
I thought about that for a little while. I built this frame with a taper so the motor can't slide up the rails on it. I am limited to 8' length from the center of the rear axle to the front of the tractor. That would give me about 6" of adjustment. I was considering a splined drive shaft instead of a couple of fixed ones. After building my shaft I see I wouldn't have had enough length to put in the splines.
Ethanol is around 120 octane. Methanol is 160 octane. I don't know of any other differences but I haven't ran ethanol in a race car.
Interesting project Tom. I imagine building a competitive tractor has it's own unique challenges aside from the technical engine/drivetrain knowledge. Good job so far. Keep the updates coming
Quote from: "Beck"Quote from: "WZ JUNK"You are getting a lot more done than I am this summer. I hardly get home long enough to mow the yard.
John
Every time it quits raining here I have to mow. It needs it now.
When the tractor is done you should build a huge mower deck and take care of the mowing with just a few passes. :wink:
Quote from: "Beck"I'm going to work on the drive shaft today. As you can see in the photos it will be SHORT, 5 1/4" center to center of the universal joints.
Explorers have drive shafts that have a splined slip section in them. One of the drive shaft yolks has the female part of the spline built in. I am chucking the splined section in the lathe. From the U-joint end am boring a 1.5" hole into it. This will then be cut off at a factory shoulder, about 1.5 inches deep. A 350 turbo transmission output yolk is 1.5" in diameter where it enters the transmission. I am taking one of these, cutting it to length, and inserting it into the machined Explorer part and welding them together at the right length. This will give me a small diameter, heavy wall, short shaft with a Ford joint on one end and a Chevy joint on the other.
I just did the same thing for a trans I am building. I machined down a yoke for a 31 Chevy closed drive shaft to 1.4", and bored out a turbo 350 yoke to a .001 interference fit. I heated the yoke, shilled the spline, and pushed them together with a press. I am having a buddy weld it together, he is better with TIG that I am, and has the equipment to heat treat it after welding.
Call Kaase for recommendation on a cyl head.
these are JUST THOUGHTS..
since its an 8.8 rear end.. are you going to have the stock 8 bolt flat flange yoke on it.. ?? if so.. that gives you 4 mounting points for a custom water jet cut disc brake rotor and perhaps a way to mount a single caliper.. so you can stop the beast
have you another set of rotors that you might leave a little of the rotor material on it to strengthen the brake drum .. or are you going to machine a strong steel band you heat up and slip over the cast iron parking brake drum area.. to give it more resistance to expansion.. or grab some steel stock and machine your own brake drum out of some big bar stock sections.
i like what you are doing..
do you have any brake or friction materials or clutch shops in your area.. where you could take a new pair of explorer parking brake shoes in and have some velvet touch semi metallic linings installed. so they might stand up to the heat of steering brakes. again.. forward thinking..
i am also thinking that you might be taking spares with you to any race. drums, shoes, spring kits.
when looking at your frame rails.. i have always wondered.. if one could stiffen them up between the engine mount brackets and the close to the rear end with some angle welded to the inside face.. that might reduce twisting in my twisted brain. []> <[] like that. perhaps it would make it too stiff.. what fun would it be if the left front wheel was not a foot higher off the ground just from frame torsion..
again these are JUST THOUGHTS..
Quote from: "unklian"Call Kaase for recommendation on a cyl head.
Word around is that Kaase built some of these Mercruiser motors to experiment with his then under construction cylinder heads. With these motors he only had to make one head to test with.
I called Kaase's shop. Some very uninterested woman answered, who said NO they had never done any and didn't seem interested in letting me talk to anyone else. I would love to talk to someone there who would make an honest recommendation.
Quote from: "wayne petty"
since its an 8.8 rear end.. are you going to have the stock 8 bolt flat flange yoke on it.. ?? if so.. that gives you 4 mounting points for a custom water jet cut disc brake rotor and perhaps a way to mount a single caliper.. so you can stop the beast
Yes I am using the 8 bolt flange yolk. Stopping one of these is VERY easy. Just let off the gas, since your are pulling a weight sled it stops right NOW!
I never considered letting a band around the drum for strength. I should have done that. I do have another set of rotors I can cut.
I will not be taking any spares along. Normally I will only get to make one pull a night. On the rarity that I make a 2nd I wouldn't have time to make any repairs.
Frame flex is a good thing in these. I don't want to make it too stiff. There is a cross member at the very front, at the transmission mount, in front of the axle, and at the very rear. The floorboards are welded to the transmission and axle cross members and to the side rails of the frame. That boxes that section pretty well.
Quote from: "Beck"Quote from: "unklian"Call Kaase for recommendation on a cyl head.
Word around is that Kaase built some of these Mercruiser motors to experiment with his then under construction cylinder heads. With these motors he only had to make one head to test with.
I called Kaase's shop. Some very uninterested woman answered, who said NO they had never done any and didn't seem interested in letting me talk to anyone else. I would love to talk to someone there who would make an honest recommendation.
hmm.. i have been emailing back and forth a little bit with them over an exhaust improvement for their engine masters contest engine.. that might translate into more race and street car header power..
you might find some interesting info in the picture with the three heads ..
http://rebuilt.net/Inboard_Marine_Engines.htm
seems there were significant differences in the port design. a small port 3.0 newer head and an earlier large port 3.0 head..
i don't know enough about these motors to give you a good answer.. i always thought there was a pair of 2.5 cylinder heads.. one with intake and exhaust on both on one side and then there was a cross flow version.. with the intake on one side and the exhaust on the other..
just curious.. which carb are you going to run on it.. were you aware of my ranting on tuning the Idle feed restrictor (aka idle jet) to get rid of the off idle flat spots.. and keep the air fuel ratio within reason from idle till the mains totally take over above 2300 to 2500 rpms.. again depending on the size of the carb and displacement.
Quote from: "wayne petty"you might find some interesting info in the picture with the three heads ..
just curious.. which carb are you going to run on it.. were you aware of my ranting on tuning the Idle feed restrictor (aka idle jet) to get rid of the off idle flat spots.. and keep the air fuel ratio within reason from idle till the mains totally take over above 2300 to 2500 rpms.. again depending on the size of the carb and displacement.
Wayne,
The 3.0 and 2.5 are completey different than my 3.7. On your link my engine is the very bottom one in the 4 cylinder section. It is in a separate bold border because it is unique. My top end is 100% BBF. Trick Flow's A460 head changes the exhaust port configuration to BBC. I can't buy turbo headers for a BBF, but I can for the BBC exhaust port. I am thinking the A460 320cc port size was too big for my motor.
I want to go directly to fuel injection, but may try to get the little bugger running with a factory intake and factory Quadrajet. My intake/carb are 2 bbl. I knew were there was a 4bbl intake, but have not found a carb. The Quadrajet was used on the higher hp versions of this motor. They are special units. They have limiters on butterfly openings. The jets are smaller. I understand that one gasket is even special. I believe they were rated at 450 cfm. Since I am planning on methanol for fuel, I don't know if this carb could even be modified to use.
I expect anyone that knows anything about the Mercruiser at the Kaase shop would have to have been there quite a while. I'm sure they have not built one in several years. If you are speaking with someone like that there, and have a chance, ask about the Mercruiser.
sorry . i missed out that point about it being a 3.7 instead of a 3.0..
are you running an aluminum head or cast iron.. i saw a E3 460 head and it had exhaust ports that looked just like the edelbrock exhaust ports.. far better than the D3 heads.. no dog leg at all.. i did not get a chance to loo at the intake ports.. i was looking for D3 heads and went in the back of the core supplier to find what i needed and while i was back there somebody bought those before i could get back to the front..
FYI.. the 224 cid quadrajet carbs are carb number
17081299 MCM 488 w/224" 3.7L R-4 4ME
and
17083522 MCM 180, 190 w/224" 3.7L R-4 4MV
just to make your life easier.
it is a significant amount of work to convert any quadrajet to ethanol..or methanol.. as the fuel flow rates and jetting need to be increased..
probably not impossible for using on a smaller motor..
you will probably want to scrounge carb jetting out of big caddys to start with.. 425s, 472, 500 motors.. various heights of the secondary metering rod holder.. you may want 455 and 454 carb jetting also..
you may find the edelbrock primary piston springs also work on the quadrajet.. walker products also sells them.
most quadrajets have some epoxy sealing the bottom of the main well plugs. that could create an issue with melting of the epoxy..
Quote from: "wayne petty"
are you running an aluminum head or cast iron.. i saw a E3 460 head and it had exhaust ports that looked just like the edelbrock exhaust ports.. far better than the D3 heads..
it is a significant amount of work to convert any quadrajet to ethanol..or methanol.. as the fuel flow rates and jetting need to be increased..
I plan to run one of the following 3 aftermarket aluminum heads. 1) Trick Flow A460 2) Kaase P51 3) Ford Super Cobra Jet
My problem is deciding on the correct port sizing. These were listed in largest to smaller (still big). I need to look at the flow and velocity using a low lift cam since blanks are not available for this engine.
I don't have the knowledge to modify a carb for alcohol. I would surely screw it up.
You might have to modify the carb to survive pulling as well. The bouncing would play havoc on float level as well as splash out of bowl vents. I have seen float bowls filled with open cell foam to stop fuel slosh with a return from bowl to tank to maintain fuel level but that was for circle track.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Quote from: "Beck"I'm going to work on the drive shaft today. As you can see in the photos it will be SHORT, 5 1/4" center to center of the universal joints.
Explorers have drive shafts that have a splined slip section in them. One of the drive shaft yolks has the female part of the spline built in. I am chucking the splined section in the lathe. From the U-joint end am boring a 1.5" hole into it. This will then be cut off at a factory shoulder, about 1.5 inches deep. A 350 turbo transmission output yolk is 1.5" in diameter where it enters the transmission. I am taking one of these, cutting it to length, and inserting it into the machined Explorer part and welding them together at the right length. This will give me a small diameter, heavy wall, short shaft with a Ford joint on one end and a Chevy joint on the other.
I just did the same thing for a trans I am building. I machined down a yoke for a 31 Chevy closed drive shaft to 1.4", and bored out a turbo 350 yoke to a .001 interference fit. I heated the yoke, chilled the spline, and pushed them together with a press. I am having a buddy weld it together, he is better with TIG that I am, and has the equipment to heat treat it after welding.
I have my yoke done. It came out nice.
Frank, that's the way it ought to be. The temptation to say"the yokes on you" is very strong. :) What do people do without a shop full of equipment????
Quote from: "kb426"Frank, that's the way it ought to be. The temptation to say"the yokes on you" is very strong. :) QuoteWhat do people do without a shop full of equipment????
Simple ....We contact Frank on a good day & say PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE... :lol: :idea: 8)
Bob .... :wink:
Quote from: "UGLY OLDS"
Simple ....We contact Frank on a good day & say PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE... :lol: :idea: 8)
Bob .... :wink:
I wish I lived closer to Frank. This project would be done already.
If you look in the background of Franks photo you will find important stuff (trans gears) that I don't know how to put together.
PLEEEEEEEEEASE Frank ??
Quote from: "Beck"Quote from: "unklian"Call Kaase for recommendation on a cyl head.
Word around is that Kaase built some of these Mercruiser motors to experiment with his then under construction cylinder heads. With these motors he only had to make one head to test with.
I called Kaase's shop. Some very uninterested woman answered, who said NO they had never done any and didn't seem interested in letting me talk to anyone else. I would love to talk to someone there who would make an honest recommendation.
Jon Kaase himself posts on the Speedtalk.com engine forums.
Maybe try him there.