The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: enjenjo on September 27, 2014, 01:14:37 PM
I have a 34 Ford here that has a problem with wheel tramp between 52 and 54 mph. He has installed new rotors, new tires, twice, new wheels, no change to the problem.
Any ideas?
yes...
do you have access to a wheel spin balancer... or a static balancer..
http://www.harborfreight.com/motorcycle-wheel-balancing-stand-98488.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/portable-wheel-balancer-39741.html
that will allow you to check the balance of the brake drums/discs..
when worried about small block ford and other flywheels.. i have taken them to the tire shop to see if they spin up to the same out of balance.. a quick and easy test to verify that it won't vibrate your teeth out when you start the engine.. 28 ounce inch verses 50 ounce inch differences..
Quote from: "enjenjo"I have a 34 Ford here that has a problem with wheel tramp between 52 and 54 mph. He has installed new rotors, new tires, twice, new wheels, no change to the problem.
Any ideas?
I have run into a couple of cars with what felt like a wheel vibration or shudder feeling that actually turned out to be the lockup converter acting up. It was always between 50 and 60 mph. (just a thought)
Quotedo you have access to a wheel spin balancer... or a static balancer..
Yes, I will take them over monday. I would like to find someone who could spin them on the car, but no luck so far.
QuoteI have run into a couple of cars with what felt like a wheel vibration or shudder feeling that actually turned out to be the lockup converter acting up. It was always between 50 and 60 mph. (just a thought)
No lockup convertor, 73 model trans. It shakes the fenders, and you can feel it in the steering wheel. Straight axle, Mustang steering box
Quote from: "enjenjo"Quotedo you have access to a wheel spin balancer... or a static balancer..
Yes, I will take them over monday. I would like to find someone who could spin them on the car, but no luck so far.
QuoteI have run into a couple of cars with what felt like a wheel vibration or shudder feeling that actually turned out to be the lockup converter acting up. It was always between 50 and 60 mph. (just a thought)
No lockup convertor, 73 model trans. It shakes the fenders, and you can feel it in the steering wheel. Straight axle, Mustang steering box
I'm sure you've checked the wheel bearing and kingpins, but that's all I got.
Quote from: "enjenjo"I would like to find someone who could spin them on the car, but no luck so far.
creative power tool use..
got an angle grinder.. or angle polisher you might be able to find something like a foam pad to touch the edge of it to the tread to spin the tire up your self to isolate the wheel..
you might even be able to spin up just the rotor and hub with the wheel removed.
a hole saw and arbor.. with a section of straight radiator hose over it and clamped on with several clamps ONLY to the hole saw blade. in a decent sized drill placed against the bearing dust cap to spin the wheel up. pressed against is the key word here.. kinda like starting a model airplane with the spinner cap ..
I'm with Phat46 but is there a chance that there is a crack in the frame or something strange that when the harmonics are just right, the vibration happens? If you put it into second instead of 3rd, does it do the same thing? Have you coasted in neutral with the engine shut off?
The plot thickens. I pulled the front tires to check spindles and bearings, and I can find no wheel weights ion either wheel. It could be he has a really nice pair of wheels and tires, but I am not buying it.
Quote from: "enjenjo"The plot thickens. I pulled the front tires to check spindles and bearings, and I can find no wheel weights ion either wheel. It could be he has a really nice pair of wheels and tires, but I am not buying it.
BINGO! I don't think I've ever had a pair of tires and wheels that didn't need balancing - much less even a single.
many many many years ago.. i did it...without weights..
i match marked the tires.. so i knew were they were.. i figured out where i needed to add weights and used less but marked the weight on the tire and added about 1/4 of the needed in tire patches glued inside the tire..
yes.. i demounted and remounted them a bunch of times.. but i got it perfect.. without weights on the outside.
i actually spent a while with my buffer on the tool for the coats 40-40A so it was perfectly smooth and these were steel wheels.
why only 1/4 the weight.. because the tire patches were much farther out and far more effective..
i watched my school teacher balance the hollow aluminum front wheels on his streamliner.. no rubber.. he came back and said that the scta was kinda upset with him.. as he had already gone well over 200 MPH before they saw them on the car in the pits.. he had spun them up to some crazy RPM on a lathe as i recall prior to putting them on the car.
Update on the 34. I took the tires in to be balanced today. One was dead nuts on, and within .020" of being perfectly round. The other was out of balance by 2 1/4 oz, and out of round by .100". My tire store buddy balanced the one tire, and put 4 oz of tire beads in each one. We'll see if that does it.
I am also replacing the front spring to get rid of the lean to the right, readjusting the 4 bars at each end to get the bind out of it, correcting the angles on the rear upper links,and reworking the drag link for sharper turns.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Update on the 34. I took the tires in to be balanced today. One was dead nuts on, and within .020" of being perfectly round. The other was out of balance by 2 1/4 oz, and out of round by .100". My tire store buddy balanced the one tire, and put 4 oz of tire beads in each one. We'll see if that does it.
one last thing... about the run out.. once you get the car reassembled..
take it out for a run.. get the tires worked in.. so the flat spots are gone... have the tire shop set up a pair of floor jacks while you do the loop around the block a few more times.. as soon as you stop at the shop. they should be jacking up the car to get the weight off the tires so they don't end up with flat spots or seemingly out of round issues because of one section resting against the floor cooling off or taking a set because of it.
i know this sounds like the stuff you flush.. but .. i have tried to rebalance cold tires before..
I got back to the 34 today, I had not worked on it since I changed the perch pins. I started putting the front end back together, and found that the panhard bar bracket interfered with the sway bar links. It was also on a bind when connected to the frame. So I reworked the bracket so it will clear every thing, and move without binding.
I went to install the Panhard bar in front, the adjusting end was frozen in the bar. Heat, oil. paraffin, nothing would loosen it up. It finally broke off flush. I had to drill and retap the bar, as it would not come out even after I drilled to the threads. So I am now at the same place I was yesterday, ready to install the Panhard bar.
I was supposed to be splitting wood today, but some one had stolen the splitter from the tool rental, so I put the front end of the 34 back together. Now I get to start on the rear.
I finally got back to the 34 Ford. I got under the rear of the car to see where to start, and found that the boxing plates were bent and cracked. Further inspection found that they had only been tack welded at the top, and all those welds were broken.
So to fix it, I am going to replace the cracked boxing plates, and weld them in properly, and build new four bar mounts.
I also found that the X member had the center cut out, and replaced with nothing. So I am going to figure out a bolt in X member that I can fit from the bottom.
I have the box plates repaired, it appears that they were installed with the body mounted to the frame, and were never welded to begin with.
I fabricated a new bracket to connect the suspension to the 8" rear end
I got back to it today after not doing anything on it for a week while I waited on parts. When I pulled the pinion carrier to replace the seal, I found that both pinion bearings were bad. I waited until Wednesday to get the new bearings in, and until Friday to get the Oring that fits on the pinion carrier. So today I set it up, and installed it.
This is not the original third member from this housing, the third member is made for a housing fill, and the housing is made for a third member fill. I drilled and tapped the housing for a drain plug, but I am filling through the vent hole. It works okay, but is a bit slow doing it that way.
How many more items will you find? Was this a high mileage car or one built from used parts?
Quote from: "kb426"How many more items will you find? Was this a high mileage car or one built from used parts?
The car sat for about 15 years without moving. It was put back in service after that without any thing cleaned or changed outside of the fuel system. I am addressing those things now.
Frank ....
Does that bracket for the rear upper bars attach to the axle by using the top bolts on the third member ??? Will that be strong enough for the axle twisting & etc ??
Do you use regular grade 8 hardware or are longer third member mounting bolts available ??
On the oil fill issue ...Why not drill & tap the third member for a fill plug ???
Just wonderin' ....
Bob .... :wink:
Quote from: "UGLY OLDS"Frank ....
Does that bracket for the rear upper bars attach to the axle by using the top bolts on the third member ??? Will that be strong enough for the axle twisting & etc ??
Do you use regular grade 8 hardware or are longer third member mounting bolts available ??
On the oil fill issue ...Why not drill & tap the third member for a fill plug ???
Just wonderin' ....
Bob .... :wink:
I have mounted the upper bars this way before with no problems on 9" rears. The original bolts are plenty long enough, there are about two threads showing outside the nut.
There is no boss in the third member to tap, and I did not pull the third member, so I used the vent. I filled by OE specs.
I have the suspension done front and rear. I am now working on the Xmember , I made some pieces to replace the original center that was missing. They are bolted in, so the transmission can be removed without pulling the engine. A few more holes to drill, and that will be done. The only thing left to address is the power windows.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Quote from: "UGLY OLDS"Frank ....
Does that bracket for the rear upper bars attach to the axle by using the top bolts on the third member ??? Will that be strong enough for the axle twisting & etc ??
Do you use regular grade 8 hardware or are longer third member mounting bolts available ??
On the oil fill issue ...Why not drill & tap the third member for a fill plug ???
Just wonderin' ....
Bob .... :wink:
I have mounted the upper bars this way before with no problems on 9" rears. The original bolts are plenty long enough, there are about two threads showing outside the nut.
There is no boss in the third member to tap, and I did not pull the third member, so I used the vent. I filled by OE specs.
"Back in the day" some friends decided to try out the local dragstrip w/a Mustang they thought was fast. They borrowed a 4:56 chunk & when they installed it they found it had no filler plug . They wound up pulling one axle, jacking up that side of the car & filling thru the bearing end of the housing!
I got the new Xmember parts all bolted in today. There was two pieces of 3/8" by 2 1/2" bar stock in the Xmember when I started, the top one was welded in, and the bottom one was bolted in, and acts as the trans mount too. I made some gussets out of 3/16" steel, about 7" wide to fit between the two pieces of bar stock. I cut a hole in each one to open it up for access to other things, and bolted them in place with 4 bolts top and bottom. I then made some angle braces out of 1/4" steel 2 1/2" wide, 16" long, and bolted them to the lower bar, gussets, and to the existing Xmember near the back of the bell housing on each side. The angle braces have one side bent down at 90 degrees to make them stiffer. I think this will be strong enough, ideally I would remove the transmission, and make a new top plate, but there were issues with the battery box, shift linkage, and exhaust, so I did it this way.
The last picture is of the rear end installed, and the pinion angle set correctly, which was impossible before. The bars were binding before you could even get it close, This time I set the rear end at ride height, with the pinion angle correct, and fabricated the bar mounts in that position.
The yoke in the transmission is just to keep the oil from leaking out, it gets a conventional slip yoke when I install the driveshaft. It also works good for checking angles. :D A nice flat face for the angle finder.
Interesting design...serviceable, solid, simple. It's a little different than most of what you see out there too, which is always fun.
That upper 4 bar mount is a nice design . I like that it is a bolt on instead of welding . I wonder if a guy could make a nice looking bolt on lower mount using an existing leaf spring mount . Not for this car but something to think about for a future build.
Quote from: "chimp koose"That upper 4 bar mount is a nice design . I like that it is a bolt on instead of welding . I wonder if a guy could make a nice looking bolt on lower mount using an existing leaf spring mount . Not for this car but something to think about for a future build.
I don't see why not. You could adjust the width if need be.
I took apart the drivers door today, this is the first time I had a chance to get back to it. The regulator arms come out of the window track, because it has a cobbled up track on it. Any one know if the doors on a sedan delivery are the same as any other model, since the sedan delivery is not listed in the parts lists I am finding.
Well, I could not find any tracks that would work in these doors, so I modified the tracks he had to make it work. I then had to make up stops in the track to keep the rollers from popping out.Every thing is now working as it should.
So a couple weeks ago I started it up, let it warm up, and checked things over. Today was a nice day, a little cool, but sunny, so I was going to take it for a test drive. It will start, but as so as the ignition is released to the run position, it dies. It has power at the ignition switch, and at the fuse box, but nothing is getting to the coil. So I have to dig further into it to find the problem. I never touched any of this, so it has me puzzled.
Why is it that gremlins and elves work overtime to wreck things but never help with anything constructive! There must be a lot of them because most have the same stories.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Well, I could not find any tracks that would work in these doors, so I modified the tracks he had to make it work. I then had to make up stops in the track to keep the rollers from popping out.Every thing is now working as it should.
So a couple weeks ago I started it up, let it warm up, and checked things over. Today was a nice day, a little cool, but sunny, so I was going to take it for a test drive. It will start, but as so as the ignition is released to the run position, it dies. It has power at the ignition switch, and at the fuse box, but nothing is getting to the coil. So I have to dig further into it to find the problem. I never touched any of this, so it has me puzzled.
Ballast resistor??
Quote from: "Rrumbler"Quote from: "enjenjo"Well, I could not find any tracks that would work in these doors, so I modified the tracks he had to make it work. I then had to make up stops in the track to keep the rollers from popping out.Every thing is now working as it should.
So a couple weeks ago I started it up, let it warm up, and checked things over. Today was a nice day, a little cool, but sunny, so I was going to take it for a test drive. It will start, but as so as the ignition is released to the run position, it dies. It has power at the ignition switch, and at the fuse box, but nothing is getting to the coil. So I have to dig further into it to find the problem. I never touched any of this, so it has me puzzled.
Ballast resistor??
There is none, electronic ignition.
I fixed it. There was a bad crimp on the wire to the coil at the fuse. I have run into this before with E Z wire harnesses. So if you use one, check all the crimps before you install it.
Quote from: "enjenjo"Quote from: "kb426"How many more items will you find? Was this a high mileage car or one built from used parts?
The car sat for about 15 years without moving. It was put back in service after that without any thing cleaned or changed outside of the fuel system. I am addressing those things now.
Steering problem may be a difference in length of wheel base so measure both sides
Quote from: "manyolkars"Quote from: "enjenjo"Quote from: "kb426"How many more items will you find? Was this a high mileage car or one built from used parts?
The car sat for about 15 years without moving. It was put back in service after that without any thing cleaned or changed outside of the fuel system. I am addressing those things now.
Steering problem may be a difference in length of wheel base so measure both sides
That it was, more than an inch. I took it out and drive it today, drives much better, no shake in the front end.