The Rodding Roundtable
Motorhead Message Central => Rodder's Roundtable => Topic started by: Beck on March 29, 2014, 02:58:41 PM
I bought a new project that I hope to make my DD. It needs body work, which I dislike. I don't want to spend the money so I have to do it. I purchased it from an insurance salvage pool from online photos. As expected it needs more than the photos showed. It is a black 2002 Blazer.
GM had a black paint problem due to sun exposure. The top surfaces need to be refinished. The hood will be replaced, but the roof needs to be repainted. I have a few questions about that: Do I need to strip to bare metal? Striping just to primer would be difficult due to the raised ribs. It is hard to sand between them without going through on the top edges and the center between them. If I strip to bare metal, what works best? I am considering one of the 4 ½" striper pads for my grinder. I don't know how well they work or how much heat they make. The other option is chemical stripper, but which one?
Years ago, Carl B. guided me to a show finish paint job on my '33 here. I used top quality materials then. Since this is going to be a DD I don't know if I can save some money on lesser materials. I am even considering using single stage urethane. The top surfaces will stay black, but I am considering 2 toning and making the lower surfaces dark silver metallic.
Last summer I had to make 3 clear coat failure repairs. One was 8 to 10 yr old on red. The others were 2 yr old on black. The sun killed the clear and it pealed. I will not use that brand clear again. It was one of the big company's lesser brands. That is what led to my consideration of single stage paint. If 2 stage is the way to go then I will buy better clear. I am trying not to list brand names, but there is a company in GA selling primers and clears that sounds good in their add. I wonder if it really is?
What is everyone else using and how is it working?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I'll offer up a couple things-
On the roof- start with a razor blade and scrape off the loose paint. Follow with a DA sander, don't grind anything. If the existing finish featheredges adequately, just knock off the cooked layers. Go with 80 or 180 if you will have lots of bare metal and be using a filler type primer. Use 240 or 320 if theres a good base layer that you can just use sealer on, wet-on-wet before color. I like 3M Clean-n-Strip discs for going all the way to metal fast without leaving lots of deep scratches.
On products- just as a rule of thumb, the good stuff for DIY projects like this is usually the meduim priced clear in any brand's lineup. I would stay within that system for black but if it was an expensive color I might step down to the lesser quality basecoat color. Urethane base/clear is the way to go for hassle free long life, but a single stage could also work beautifully.
You get what you pay for, or what I should say is you won't get more than you pay for quality-wise. Cheaper primers and color coats can end up being even costlier to use because they don't go as far. Half price isn't a bargain if you have to use twice as much.
Notice how I dodged mentioning brands? I could give a couple examples but availability varies so widely from one place to another. They all have good products, but its up to the user to determine whats right for them. When its time for me to pick something I spend some time comparing technical data sheets on the internet.
this may be a silly question, but here goes...
what if any difference is there between sealers and primer?
Quote from: "wvcab"this may be a silly question, but here goes...
what if any difference is there between sealers and primer?
This is a cut and paste from something I wrote awhile back, maybe it will answer this Q-
PRIMER/SURFACER- Most commonly, a catalyzed acrylic urethane product. This is what most folks are talking about when they say "primer". It sticks, fills, and seals. But it has to be sanded before painting. Its main job is to build up thick so you can sand it flat. It is not intended for use over bare metal and doesn't bite it well. OK for small spots of bare metal though, like sand-throughs on the epoxy. Can be applied over stable existing finishes and fillers.
PRIMER/SEALER- Can actually be the same product as primer/surfacer, mixed differently. See technical data for your primer. Lays down smooth and is intended as a wet-on-wet coat applied over sanded primer surfacer and/or existing finishes, just before painting. Useful when repainting a whole car with many primer spots but mostly good paint, it creates an even tone and texture, and aids color coverage and fade/bleed-thru resistance of the paint applied over it.
All single stage paint fades way sooner than you'll want. If you intend to drive this more than 3 years, you should consider good materials. You can use Kirker automtive 2 stage primer and epoxy primer for sealer but I wouldn't use the top coats if it's going to sit in the sun everyday.
I painted my wrecker and 2 shop trucks with Imron single stage and 5 years later they still had the wet look and were as nice as the day they were painted.--Just sayin
i vote for imron also.. expensive.. but
15 years in the sun..
12 years under water and it still looks great..
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/sunken104footboatsantabarbara_zps6445f0f2.jpg?t=1396071590
:roll:
Here is a little information that I found on another forum about Imron.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/du-pont-imron-159934.html
Isn't the price of Imron about the same as if I were using a quality base/clear system.
Quote from: "Beck"I am trying not to list brand names, but there is a company in GA selling primers and clears that sounds good in their add. I wonder if it really is?
I was trying not to put a brand name on here but I don't know any other way.. Anyone heard of these guys or know of their products? Good? Bad? Ugly?
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/
I don't know if Imron is still available, DuPont changed hands and is called something else now. In the late 80s I was mixing hundred gallon orders of it for KCS railroad out of Louisiana. Some colors cover very poorly.
Back then, I used Durethane clear (PPG's polyurethane at the time) to paint my first Grand Prix. That product, and Imron, and ANY quality catalyzed polyurethane topcoat will have a couple exceptional qualities ... chemical resistance and hardness. Polyurethanes are nearly impossible to buff when cured, but just as hard to scratch. Even removing little dust nibs can be tough.
I have not used SPI products, but my opinion is that any polyurethane is overkill for a daily driven Blazer. Acrylic urethanes are easier to work with and due to their popularity, price and selection is better.
Yes, I have heard praise for Southern Polyurethane, but I don't have personal experience.
I have been considering their clear for use over "whatever" urethane base.
A theory I have read is that the base doesn't need to be quite the quality that the clear does... assuming proper prep and adequate primer, ie: good adhesion.
I am rethinking my 2 tone idea. I think I will just go back with all black. I will just paint the panels that need work so it won't be a complete repaint. I had considered doing the Power Tour with this so was tricking it out a bit with the 2 tone, but in the end it will be my DD. Now I have to figure out how picky I am going to be about the body. It has some minor dings that would be fine on a work truck, but not a show car. I am going to see what a paintless dent removal guy can do.
I like black cars, but this makes the 4th black one I own.
It will need to go through IL rebuild inspection and have a new title issued before I can drive it. That should take about a month. Plenty of time to work out the bumps. Those can be done after the safety inspection.
What is everyone paying for clear? I see the "Universal Clear" of the brand I previously posted is $36.50 a qt. The activator is $36.50 a qt. also. $73 for a half gal of sprayable product. That may do what I need to cover. If I do single panel repairs I will know if I have enough for the next one. That increases waste because you always mix a little extra. I am out of filler primer too so the price goes up...
Have you tried Smartshoppersinc?
Quote from: "kb426"Have you tried Smartshoppersinc?
That is a new site to me.
It looks like Kirker and HOK are there biggest name selections.
I used Kirker Hot Rod Black on a truck. When painting a panel at a time the sheen doesn't match. If spraying the whole thing it would be fine. When I had to repaint a fender, it was noticiable. This job won't be satin. Gloss finish would eliminate that issue.
I have a history of clear failure on the HOK base. It was likely caused by my application technique. I always thought clear lifted because it didn't bond to the base due to the base being to cured. Now I am understanding it was likely caused by "solvent pop" - or the base was not cured enough. I had been trying to solve my problem by immediately applying clear to the HOK base with very minimal flash time. I thought the clear would melt into the base. It didn't work. I have never tried it the other way by allowing the base to dry longer.
Quote from: "Beck"What is everyone paying for clear? .
I think most paint stores that still serve walk-ins will probably have a deal where you can walk out with a gallon of clear and hardener for it around $100-150 in a value oriented lineup. For example, Omni stuff (by PPG). Thats something I have used successfully but it has a poor reputation, however its reasonably priced.
Quote from: "Beck"I have never tried it the other way by allowing the base to dry longer.
You definitely should. Solvent trapped in basecoat is a very common source of problems. You should be able to sand base (it should be that dry) before clear. Refer to product tech info for the maximum time you can let it dry before clear and just stay within that and it will stick. Matching reducer selection to booth temp is how to make the base dry right.
Quote from: "idrivejunk"booth
Whats that?
My garage is my booth, much to my wife's dislike!
Nason is going to be used.
Thanks everyone for your input!
Quote from: "idrivejunk"Omni stuff (by PPG). Thats something I have used successfully but it has a poor reputation, however its reasonably priced.
That is the clear I had problems with. I don't think it has enough UV blocking. The base works fine for me, but not the clear. I have successfully used their primers too.
Nason in the garage sounds perfect! I agree with your Omni statement. Change "booth" to ambient and the song remains the same. Hope they treat you right at the paint gettin' place. Squint and imagine its a Nomad or something, maybe you won't hate the chore as bad. Good luck!
I don't know if you can even get Omni anymore it was replaced around here with Shop Line which we have used from time to time with good results.
A lot of guys spend tons of time and money building their dream car and then when it comes time to paint they want the cheapest materials they can find--I don't understand that. I have been doing this since the late 50's and I think I have at least learned that if you cheap out and have to do it over--It ain't cheap any more. Buy the good stuff!
I still buy Omni for select projects.